January 2023 - 'S Wonderful!

[ragman1]

But what makes you think that others' arrangements aren't based on an original version? Unless we're talking about inventing a completely new song, of course there's a relationship with the original version.

I mean, the tune's the tune, not something random. They haven't just plucked their alterations from the air; the tune is the tune.

There's also the point that many original versions have been vastly improved by other, perhaps better, players. Would you allow for that? Not every relative change to an original is a retrograde step, musically speaking.

[Laurence Finston]

But what makes you think that others' arrangements aren't based on an original version? Unless we're talking about inventing a completely new song, of course there's a relationship with an original version.

Of course they're based on it. I want to know what the original version is, I don't want to know someone else's arrangement. I don't want to guess what the original was.

I mean, the tune's the tune, not something random. They haven't just plucked their alterations from the air; the tune is the tune.

There are certain common ways of making substitions and altering chords. They may be using them or not. I don't want to know. If you want to know, there's nothing wrong with that.

There's also the point that many original versions have been vastly improved by other, perhaps better, players. Would you allow for that?

No. I don't see it this way at all. There have been many good versions of popular songs, but I don't think anyone has improved the songs themselves. In many cases, they've messed them up. Of course, this is subjective.

[ragman1]

Then that is your MO. So be it :-)

So, as a matter of interest, what changes would you use for 'S Wonderful, as we're here? I'd be happy to try them.

[alpop]

Nicely done. These old tunes suit you. Mine is still a few weeks away. I am still deciding on a key and an approach. (solo guitar or play to a backing track)

As far as learning the song, I am not needing a lead sheet. I learned the melody from listening to Doris Day. (the straighter the singer the better for this purpose)

The basic chords seem pretty obvious, so I've made a chart and will tinker with it to suit my approach and abilities.

I hope we hear some more musical contributions!

[Laurence Finston]

So, as a matter of interest, what changes would you use for 'S Wonderful, as we're here? I'd be happy to try them.

I just checked and S'Wonderful is in the public domain (1927). I never made a lead sheet for it because I don't particularly like it, but I don't hate it and it's not that much work. I'm busy today but when I get around to it I'll make one and post it. I just had a look at the Gershwin songbook and it's pretty straightforward with a couple of slightly unusual changes. Later Gershwin compositions have more unusual things in them. Nothing in this one that I would mention specifically.

[ragman1]

I just checked and S'Wonderful is in the public domain (1927). I never made a lead sheet for it because I don't particularly like it, but I don't hate it and it's not that much work. I'm busy today but when I get around to it I'll make one and post it. I just had a look at the Gershwin songbook and it's pretty straightforward with a couple of slightly unusual changes. Later Gershwin compositions have more unusual things in them. Nothing in this one that I would mention specifically.

Thanks, sounds good. Looking forward to it.

[ragman1]

alpop -

Thank you for your compliments. Hope the tune goes well for you.

I hope we hear some more musical contributions!

Yes, so do I!

[alpop]

My take on the basic harmony:

[Laurence Finston]

I'm busy today but when I get around to it I'll make one and post it.

I just went ahead and did it: Songlist/swndrfl.pdf at main * lfinston/Songlist * GitHub

The chord symbols are explained on the second page of this document: Songlist/public_domain_1.pdf at main * lfinston/Songlist * GitHub

I played through it once and didn't notice any mistakes. If anyone finds any, please let me know.

[ragman1]

alpop -

Looks okay to me. Especially the F#m7b5 before the bridge but F#m afterwards. That was clever, sort of made a better transition harmonically.

TART UP TO SUIT

:-)

[ragman1]

Laurence -

I've got the lead sheet.

Eb/ Eb6/Bb - % - C7/E/Bbo - %

Fm9/Bb13 - % - Eb/ Eb6/Bb - %

repeat to Eb/ Eb6/Bb - Eb6/Am7b5

G/D - D7/C - G/B - D7

G7/D - C7 - F7 - Bb7/Bb7b9

Eb/ Eb6/Bb - % - Cm/F9 - Cm/F

Fm7/Eo Fm7 - Fm7/Bb7 - EbM7/Ab6 - (EbM7/Bb7/C Bb7)

last: Eb/AbM7 - Eb

I can sense the 'original' feeling already! I'll try them out, thanks.

[Laurence Finston]

I can sense the 'original' feeling already! I'll try them out, thanks.

You're very welcome.

[ragman1]

Here we go. These are your chords precisely, all the right bass notes, etc. I am not a piano so it's not like that. Vague sort of stride feel maybe. No frills melody, per the sheet.

[ragman1]

But the question is what do I think of it? So I did it again with the changes that I used before...

And the answer is... I prefer yours!

Make of that what you will :-)

[Laurence Finston]

I almost never pay any attention to the bass notes that they put under the chords. They are an artifact of the particular arrangement which was done by some employee at the publisher's. George Gershwin was never in the same room with this arrangement. The only time they have some signficance is when you have a descending bass line that's very characteristic of a song or something like that. More sophisticated composers, like Vernon Duke, did these kinds of things. I can't think of any specific examples at the moment.

I only write them in for the sake of completeness: you can be sure that my lead sheets reflect the original sources. The only change I made was that I turned the stems on most of the Bb notes upside-down because there was more space below than above.

I think alterations are most effective when used sparingly, but I have no hesitation in making changes. I don't usually play things exactly the same way twice and almost never write things down for myself, if I'm working out an arrangement, only if it's for other people. So please feel free to vary anything. But this way, one at least knows what was in the original published version.

[Laurence Finston]

By the way, these arrangements don't account for jazz eighth-notes or swing rhythm in general. If you see a dotted quarter-note followed by an eighth-note or a dotted eighth-note followed by a sixteenth note, don't take them too seriously. These songs were meant to be played using swing. In the 1920s and '30s, not as exaggerated as later on but present at all times.

[Laurence Finston]

Make of that what you will :-)

What I make of it is that "Tin Pan Alley" composers knew what they were doing. It's not that easy to compose a well-constructed song. That's why people used them then and that's why we're still using them today --- 96 years later in this case. And being able to come up with a good melody is an inborn talent that has nothing to do with musical training.

If I have any purpose in posting to this forum (not being a jazz musician), it's to try to encourage a little more respect for and interest in the original music that people call "jazz standards". They're not just "heads" to be noodled off as a kind of obligatory chore before you get to the solos, but little works of art in their own right.

[Bobby Timmons]

My take on the basic harmony:

I think that's spot on only I would emphasize Eb as the root on the Cdim. I'm sensing the French heritage.

[Laurence Finston]

The only change I made was that I turned the stems on most of the Bb notes upside-down because there was more space below than above.

I also changed the notation of the chords. I didn't change any of the chords themselves, though. Occasionally you'll find an error and I correct those. There were none in this arrangement. You can tell it's an error by checking the arrangement. Sometimes with the notes on the staves, they'll forget an accidental that's needed for the chord. If it's in the melody, I correct that.

You sometimes find strange notations in the chords. In most cases, for older music, they were added later, not always competently. When they were first published in the '20s or '30s, it was without chord symbols. Occasionally, the arrangement is from the vocal score and they never have chord symbols, so in those cases they've always been added later. This is very often the case for German popular music and not very often for American, except in the special case of Bernstein.

[alpop]

I think that's spot on only I would emphasize Eb as the root on the Cdim. I'm sensing the French heritage.

For sure if I was chomping along rhythm chords I'd use Eb as the bottom note of what I called Cdim in the last section.

[ragman1]

I almost never pay any attention to the bass notes that they put under the chords..

Well, that was what your sheet said so obviously I did it that way. There is a descending line from D to B at one point.

I have to say I'm not sure what the object of all this is. We aren't in 1927 now, things have moved on - which, of course is good otherwise we'd still be living in a bygone era. Musically, of course, as you say, those early compositions were beautifully crafted and their quality is rarely matched today.

However, I've listened to a dozen instrumental versions of this tune by well known artists (Brubeck, Grusin, Coleman, Pepper, Sims, Harris, Shaw, Gillespie, Peterson, etc, etc) and they all use a two-bar diminished chord. That's become the method now which, presumably, is why it's on most lead sheets today. If you, as a non-jazz musician, would say they're just rather naughtily overriding Gershwin's original changes then I don't know. But I doubt if that's what's going on.

So, personally, I don't really care as long as it sounds right in performance. I know you'll say that you don't mind altering the harmonies, you prefer altering the original version rather than follow what all the players - who are jazz musicians - are doing. My answer to that is that if you can come up with a beautiful arrangement that trumps all those players' versions then that would be something.

I'm not belittling your work, Laurence, I can see it's a labour of love for you, it's meticulously done, but I have to wonder where it's going.

[Laurence Finston]

Well, that was what your sheet said so obviously I did it that way.

The lead sheets don't come with instructions and I don't want to overload things by saying, use them this way, use them that way. You are literally the first person who has ever given me any specific feedback on this project.

There is a descending line from D to B at one point.

I wouldn't know. I just wrote them down, I didn't pay any attention to them.

I have to say I'm not sure what the object of all this is. We aren't in 1927 now, things have moved on. Which, of course is good otherwise we;d still be living in a bygone era. Musically, of course, as you say, compositions were beautifully crafted and their quality is rarely matched today.

It's very simple. These are songs I like to play. If I record myself, it's inconvenient to turn pages. So, if there's a song I want to possibly record, I write out a lead sheet. I refuse to photocopy sheet music. It is legal to write them out and copy them, even if they're not in the public domain. It would not be legal to publish them unless they're in the public domain. I also sometimes cut up my copies and paste lines onto staff paper for the purpose of making arrangements. If I don't need to turn pages, I don't usually write out a lead sheet.

It is legal to publish the ones in the public domain. I do this in case anyone finds them useful. Somebody might, because I see that people view the pages. I don't see who they are, but I do see that, say, 29 people from jazzguitar.be visited the Git repository this week. I doubt that many people find them useful or someone would have said so, but they're there in case anyone ever does. It doesn't cost me anything.

If you, as a non-jazz musician, want to say they're merely arrogantly or ignorantly overriding Gershwin's original changes then I don't know. But I doubt if that's what's going on.

I wouldn't say that at all. First of all, I would probably never find out and if I did, I wouldn't give it second thought. I can't tell just by listening what changes they're playing. That's not a skill I have. They're free to do anything they like.

So, personally, I don't really care as long as it sounds right in performance. I know you'll say that you don't mind altering the harmonies but you prefer altering the original version rather than follow what all the players - who are jazz musicians - are doing.

This isn't something that would even occur to me.

My answer to that is that if you can come up with a beautiful arrangement that trumps all those players' versions then that would be something.

That's not my goal at all. I play purely for the pleasure of it. I'm not in competition with anyone, least of all any of the people you mentioned.

I'm not belittling your work, Laurence, I can see it's a labour of love for you, it's meticulously done, but I have to wonder where it's going.

It's purely for my own use and if others can benefit from it, that would make me happy. If they feel it doesn't benefit them, I don't consider that a problem. Then they will have wasted a few minutes at my GitHub repository.

[ragman1]

Anyway, I rather like alpop's version in C with simple chords. Just my kind of thing :-)

[Laurence Finston]

Anyway, I rather like alpop's version in C with simple chords. Just my kind of thing :-)

Thanks anyway for the feedback.

[ragman1]

I wouldn't know. I just wrote them down, I didn't pay any attention to them.

Oh, brilliant. Watch out if you copy one of his lead sheets, he wasn't paying attention!

'I know you'll say that you don't mind altering the harmonies but you prefer altering the original version rather than follow what all the players - who are jazz musicians - are doing'.

This isn't something that would even occur to me.

I'm afraid that's what you've been saying all along:

I want to know what the original is and use it as the basis for improvisation, or an arrangement or whatever.

And...

I almost never pay any attention to the bass notes that they put under the chords. They are an artifact of the particular arrangement which was done by some employee at the publisher's. George Gershwin was never in the same room with this arrangement.

Yet you insist on original versions. How do you know it's just the bass notes they insert?

So it's probably far safer to get a public domain manuscript from somewhere like the local library than rely on yours that you don't give proper attention to anyway. Right...

Thanks for the discussion, Laurence, but I think I'll leave you to it :-)