How Insensitive

[mjo]

I don’t understand how any C# is a V of D.

rags explained my thinking on that. Most of the time, a diminished seems to function as a dominant, at least too my ears / mind

I've just read some ideas in other threads that question the usefulness / accuracy of the functional / roman numeral analysis. Those are related specifically too classical music, but I'm wondering if the more experienced players are beyond the type of thing I'm doing above ??

[rpjazzguitar]

I don’t understand how any C# is a V of D.

C#dim is C# E G A#.

If you add a low A, you get A7b9.

A7 is the vanilla V of D.

[Christian Miller]

Another way to look at this is to reference the melody. The message is less is more. Since you have two bars of each chord, played as a slow tempo, the temptation is to double up and play through the changes. However, the changes are playing through the melody, which is quite static. So, you could use those same notes, perheps embellish a little and explore more the spaces between the notes. This will build up to, or lead nicely into the harmony that follows, which you can then explore more rigorously, or stay with the same.

Some may argue the composers of these Bossas didn't intend bebop lines to rip through them. For one, it's too easy, and two, it's not always appropriate. I used to rip through this and got called out for 'how insensitive' I was playing. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it is an alternative approach worth exploring. Check out Pat Martino's interpretation.

The older I get the less interested in changes running I get on most songs. Peter Bernstein was a big influence in that - play the song. He’s a big advocate of the melodic variation approach.

Playing ballads of any kind is a challenge quite aside from uptempo bebop chops.

Pat Martino can do no wrong though….

[Christian Miller]

rags explained my thinking on that. Most of the time, a diminished seems to function as a dominant, at least too my ears / mind

I've just read some ideas in other threads that question the usefulness / accuracy of the functional / roman numeral analysis. Those are related specifically too classical music, but I'm wondering if the more experienced players are beyond the type of thing I'm doing above ??

Quite honestly I think analysis is unnecessary. Practice the chord tones and connecting from chord to chord before considering other notes and scales….look at how the melody relates to it. Look out for similar progressions in other songs.

[mjo]

Quite honestly I think analysis is unnecessary. Practice the chord tones and connecting from chord to chord before considering other notes and scales….look at how the melody relates to it. Look out for similar progressions in other songs.

That's actually what I'm all about right now, everything is chords ( I hesitate to say arpeggio, some get the wrong idea ).
I tend to work off of chord "grips". ...you talked about that in one of your vids and mentioned it as a Bernstein type approach ... made me feel a lot better about it -lol. Any scale, or passing tones usually come out after I've played through a few times.

The big idea with assigning function was to help me recognize similar movement as it comes up. It may be though that the best thing is just to learn more tunes

Thanks Christian

[AllanAllen]

C#dim is C# E G A#.

If you add a low A, you get A7b9.

A7 is the vanilla V of D.

Thank you. I understand this.

[Christian Miller]

That's actually what I'm all about right now, everything is chords ( I hesitate to say arpeggio, some get the wrong idea ).
I tend to work off of chord "grips". ...you talked about that in one of your vids and mentioned it as a Bernstein type approach ... made me feel a lot better about it -lol. Any scale, or passing tones usually come out after I've played through a few times.

The big idea with assigning function was to help me recognize similar movement as it comes up. It may be though that the best thing is just to learn more tunes

Thanks Christian

I think that’s fine. I call it a IIIm7 bIIIo7 II7, makes it transposable. The next chord is pretty unusual though, one of those magic Jobim chords

[ragman1]

The next chord is pretty unusual though, one of those magic Jobim chords

Which is? I'm dying to know :-)

[ragman1]

If we're talking about Insensatez then it would be VI7/3rd but I don't see it as very unusual or magical. Maybe the very first time you see it!

[mjo]

...... I call it a IIIm7 bIIIo7 II7, .....

You lost me on that. I had to take some time to think about it. You've got it all in Bb then. ...?

Then I have this from rags:

it would be VI7/3rd

That's exactly what it is, in context. I wanted to pack it into a ii-V-I

I think what I'm seeing is this system breaking down as a useful tool for me. I was taught, as a beginner to break these tunes down into key centers. The point was, of course to know what scale too use. I tend to think harmony first these days, scales work themselves out as I get familiar with the tune.

So, thank you both ! You've taught me something, whether you meant to or not

...what's got me now is how I ended up with a D7 arp over that G9/B. If I can make sense of that, I'll take it on the road ... or to the next tune.

Cheers,
Mike

[ragman1]

...what's got me now is how I ended up with a D7 arp over that G9/B. If I can make sense of that, I'll take it on the road ... or to the next tune.

Cheers,
Mike

That's just been answered on the Mad/Theory thread. Unfortunately there's no answer to it, the F#'s all wrong. Maybe if you played it as Dm7 that would work better because of the natural F.

[AllanAllen]

Sometimes "theoretically wrong" sounds right. Don't let theory get in the way of your ears, there's no time for theory on stage.

[ragman1]

I didn't say theoretically wrong. I played it. It plays wrong, simple as that.

[Christian Miller]

If it sounds good to you…

[Christian Miller]

You lost me on that. I had to take some time to think about it. You've got it all in Bb then. ...?

Then I have this from rags:



That's exactly what it is, in context. I wanted to pack it into a ii-V-I

I think what I'm seeing is this system breaking down as a useful tool for me. I was taught, as a beginner to break these tunes down into key centers. The point was, of course to know what scale too use. I tend to think harmony first these days, scales work themselves out as I get familiar with the tune.

So, thank you both ! You've taught me something, whether you meant to or not

...what's got me now is how I ended up with a D7 arp over that G9/B. If I can make sense of that, I'll take it on the road ... or to the next tune.

Cheers,
Mike

Yeah sorry it’s like a progression that starts off in Dm and midway moves to the Bb. The telltale is the Cm6 cos it has an Eb in whereas we have an E (9) in the first chord (We then eventually move to the Ebmaj7 chord, before using a ii V to get back into Dm.)

Not unusual. Corcovado does a similar ish thing (Am—>F) for instance. In old standards rep, we have Sweet Lorraine going from F to Dm and then to Bb via a similar progression albiet without that weirdo G7/B (instead Dm Dbo7 Cm7 F7). Sure I could think of some more. It’s a fancy way to go Dm F7 Bb really.

That Dm could start as a iii or a Im depending on context. Here it starts as a Im

[ragman1]

If it sounds good to you…

Depends on you's ear!

First with D7 arp over G7/B, then with Dm arp. Sorry about the shouting, I couldn't help myself, seriously!

(I wouldn't actually play it with arps in any case, or C harm, I'd use G lyd dom)

[AllanAllen]

Egg on my face, I would not be pleased with that D7arp if I played it.

[mjo]

! LOL rags. ..not joking, but quite possibly mad - proper english definition.

My results are not quite as shocking as yours, not fair to say since I can't post a recording of what I'm doing. The F# usually follows a G from the previous chord. Then I have a moment to diddle around, ( sometimes a d9 on that D) and bring it into the 7th and/or 5th of the Bb. I was drawn to that F# just through practicing the tune, it seems a nod to the nature of the melody, ...or a horrible mistake ..maybe I'll get over it.

I posed the question because I didn't know if this was something everyone knew about, ..or purposely avoided

-cheers,
Mike

Edit: on the C-6 I'm often walking down a C- triad to G- triad (you could say) into that F# ... if you call it F#-7b5 does that help ?

[ragman1]

My results are not quite as shocking as yours, not fair to say since I can't post a recording of what I'm doing.

It is, I might have got converted!

on the C-6 I'm often walking down a C- triad to G- triad (you could say) into that F# ... if you call it F#-7b5 does that help ?

I don't quite understand. After the C-6, G7/B is the usual chord. Are you saying that you've changed it to an F#-7b5?

[mjo]

I don't quite understand. After the C-6, G7/B is the usual chord. Are you saying that you've changed it to an F#-7b5?

No. On the C- I often end up playing a C- triad followed by a G- triad, high to low, ending on the G. Then a half step down to F# ( my D7 ) ..or F#-7b5, if you like.

You may have been converted ?? ... I'm still diggin it.

-cheers

[ragman1]

OK, so Cm triad for Cm6, G triad for G7/B. But the next chord is BbM7. Where does this F# and F#m7b5 come in?

[mjo]

OK, so Cm triad for Cm6, G triad for G7/B. But the next chord is BbM7. Where does this F# and F#m7b5 come in?

No, the C minor and G minor both go on the Cm6 chord. The F# comes in on the G9/B. It's still the D7 arp, or you could call it F#m7d5. I hadn't really broken the C- and G- triads down until recently, it was all just " C minor ".

[ragman1]

Okay, as before then, D7 arp over G7.

I think you should let us hear it somehow. Hearing is believing :-)