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Part of a what we love about Grant is that any of us could be Grant.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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12-02-2023 08:37 PM
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If I know the head, I’m playing the head. But if I were to comp (and this is true for the solos too), I’m looking for stripped down changes and looking for rhythmic accents I can play. With the head, those would be accents in the melody. Or maybe more likely, empty places in the melody I could punctuate. Or some combination of the two. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Listening to the pianists and stuff on those bebop records, it’s usually pretty simple rhythms.
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What if there’s no piano. Would you play the head with a horn over bass and drums?
The recordings I heard had the piano doing the head too… I think. If it was comping chords it was too low for me to pick out. Which is why I brought the question here.
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Yeah man. Even when I'm playing in a guitar duo, we'll often play a bop tune in unison with no accompaniment. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
So you're not hearing a lot of recordings that have piano or guitar comping through the head on these tunes (though listen to some Charlie Parker ones and you'll probably hear a bit more of that––Dexterity comes to mind because it's a bit slower than is typical of Parker rhythm changes). Something important to remember about this stuff is that a lot of jazz comes down to "performance practice." Why do people start If I Were a Bell with those old bell chime sounds in the piano? Because Miles did. Why do fours usually trade in the order that the performers took their solos? Because that's what people do.
Why does the band take the bebop heads in unison?
A lot of the way the music happens is based on tradition, which can be annoying or frustrating, but is also really nice too. In part because it can ground you if you know what you're getting into, but also because it gives a framework from which you can surprise people. Like when a really good pop song-writer hits you with a minor four chord at the right time or something. But it's knowing all those little traditions and ins and outs and stuff that allow you to break out of those common practice things confidently.
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Except of course we couldn’t haha Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I’d play the head Originally Posted by AllanAllen
(Actually the head doesn’t fit the changes that well.)
Id just comp rhythm changes, and what I’d actually play would be highly variable from chorus to chorus.
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I think this is what most people do? You don’t comp at all during the head A sections (it just doesn’t sound very good if you do) but you can comp during the bridge (because there is no written melody in it anyway, so whoever is playing the melody just improvises that bit).
During solos you can comp some kind of rhythm changes throughout.
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yeah I mean it’s not like anyone told me to do that or I worked it out from records. It’s just what everyone does when they play that tune. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Which is why I’m asking what people comp behind it. I’ve done it at least 4 times at Originally Posted by Christian Miller
jams and it’s not been good. So I listened to a bunch of Oleo versions on Spotify and
there wasn’t anything.
Funny I didn’t pick up the thing in common: not comping during the head. Like Graham suggested.
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My problem is I’ve been on stage every time and been the chordal instrument so, in my experience there’s been no “everyone else” just me making mistakes. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I’ll just learn the head and be done with it.
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You can lead a horse to water … Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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I think it was Joe Henderson who once told somebody ‘the answer to all your questions is on the records’. Certainly that’s where I’ve picked up nearly everything I know (obviously some stuff out of books and videos as well, but not that much really). Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Well I mean I also listened to what other people do when they perform the tune, when you’re not playing in the band. If you are at a jam oleo is a common call. I don’t actually think I listened to Oleo on record till later. CD’s were expensive when I was getting it together! Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Oh … also worth mention … there is one version where the piano very clearly and prominently comps for the melody …
… erm …
Grant Green’s “Oleo.”
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do you think he does that so it sounds like he isn’t playing the wrong notes? ;-) Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Obviously it didn’t work. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Well isn’t that embarrassing. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Ok dumb question - -
My textbook ( fave ) version of Oleo is Pat Martino's. So what do you see / hear about the differences in the piano playing in each version - -the GG vs PM ? Maybe that'd clarify this for me and others.
Thx
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The Grant Green version has altered changes for the A section, so Sonny Clark comps those altered changes during the head, and during the solos. The bridge is the same as rhythm changes, so he comps the usual bridge changes during the head and solos. Originally Posted by Dennis D
The Pat Martino version on Desperado is fairly standard really, during the head the pianist only comps on the bridge, then comps a sort of minimal rhythm changes during the solos, with some chromatic sideslip type stuff.
The Martino version on Live at Yoshis is different, he plays with the form slightly and treats the A section as a sort of minor modal vamp. During the head, Joey de Francesco only comps on the bridge. On the solos he comps a sort of minor mode on the A sections and some kind of descending dominant stuff on the bridge (maybe using some tritone subs of the rhythm changes bridge cycle?). Something like that, anyway, they probably throw all sorts of variations in there, I haven’t heard it for a while.
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This is the one I was talking about earlier with the additive meter in the A sections. Killer arrangement. Originally Posted by grahambop
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It's a little jarring, but it sounds intentional. I like some tracks better than others. This fits in there someplace. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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There’s a good video of him playing the same arrangement, with Joey D. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I always thought the Grant Green version from the Sonny Clark sessions was weird, but remember, those weren't released til years later...they might have just been messing around.
Here's Grant playing it "right." Lots of lines worth stealing. Grant will always be my favorite player.
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I don't like Rhythm Changes much. There, I said it.
Why? Because I usually can't think of anything interesting to play and I can't play fast enough to make it sound like bop.
But, I know some of the heads and the easiest one to play is Oleo. Playing the head is two choruses that I don't have to think about. I have a memorized solo that I sometimes use.
No piano? Probably wouldn't bother me. I'd still play melody on the head in and out. No chords is a valid texture to use. And Oleo is a strong melody.
If I ever get motivated, I will write and memorize a harmonized line for the head. Try to trick the rest of the band into thinking I can play this tune. I did it for Billie's Bounce and that paid off.
But, I do have some comping chords that work for Oleo, although that might be a low bar. It's going by so fast I don't hear clashes.
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