On Playing With Singers

**franamico** · 03-25-2010, 09:19 AM

Last night I played a gig with a jazz singer...
What's special about that?

I thought you'd never ask.

After years of playing with jazz singers, I eventually decided to share my experience with as many jazz guitarists as possible.

So, here's a common scenario...
You move to a "musically hot" city and you want to break into the jazz scene...and maybe, at the beginning you still don't have the experience to play all the heads confidently.

And maybe...you want to make money...

And people in the scene tell you that if you have a singer in your band you are gonna be more likely to "get gigs"...

So what do you do?
You get in touch with a few singers...

Now, there two main types of singers:

1) They are naturally talented, can sing, but have never studied music. Most of the times, these people, have no charts in their key and if you want to work with them you'll have to spend tons of hours transposing tunes and writing them on Finale.

Stay AWAY from this first category...trust me on this!

2) They are naturally talented, they studied music and they have their own charts. Sometimes, they even have specific arrangements for each song and that is sweet.
But, most of the times singers carry around hand written charts with no heads, just chords, that are impossible to decipher.

So what do you do?
If you are desperate to play gigs, you play with them. But you soon realize that the music goes nowhere. And on top of that, you start developing the habit of playing tunes without knowing the melody of the song. Your repertoire is still slim and you forget how to use melodies from the head to build up your solos.

This is terrible!!!

My first advice is DON'T DO IT!!!

In ten years spent playing with all kinds of jazz singers, I advice you to choose to work only on projects with specific arrangements. And the arrangements must come from the singer!!

It is absolutely annoying to see, for example, an intro with a bunch of chords and noticing that your singer has NO clue of what you are supposed to play inside.

Believe me, stay away from these gigs. They teach you all the wrong stuff.

ALWAYS have clean arrangements (possibly written on Finale) of your tunes. ALWAYS learn all melodies!!

Have a direction in your music, play what you like. Don't be desperate! If you need money, invest some time in private teaching but stay away from lousy musicians who spend no time in planning their gigs out.

Rehearse until you have a good command of all the tunes and you'll be getting more and more high quality gigs.

That's all for now

Hope this will help some of you.

**billkath** · 03-25-2010, 09:42 AM

Brilliant post!
So true. There is nothing more soul destroying than playing with people that don't put the same effort as you do into their own "craft".

**eddue** · 03-25-2010, 02:17 PM

Having a good arrangement is great but sometimes you have to work with a lot less and be expected to perform well.

I am a substitute bass player for a few local groups, playing all types of music. A lot of working bands don't have written arrangements and just call tunes from fake books or from memory or songs downloaded from the internet with all the wrong chords, often because they have been together for a while and everyone but you knows their own music. Sometimes the gig is just for one night and with little or no rehearsal. Often the singer wants a different key than whats written and won't tell you that the intro or ending is something that he/she worked up on their own and expect you to get it. And more times than not, the singer dictates what the band will play.

These are the type of gigs that are the most common. And if you don't do well you don't get call backs or referrals. This is where all those jam sessions you have been going to over the years come in handy. The hardest part is transposing while reading a fake book chart.

Not an ideal situation but too common if you are a working musician.

The ironic thing is, the better you do in these bad situations the more of these bad gigs you will be offered.

**bkdavidson** · 03-26-2010, 02:57 PM

These threads about singers come up a lot, and I'm always hesitant to ask this, but does anyone else pretty much hate working with singers? And I mean singers, not people who play an instrument as well, but people who all they do is open their mouth and have words come out (hopefully) in tune and (hopefully) in rhythm.

**eddue** · 03-26-2010, 03:28 PM

I do enjoy playing behind a good singer. Especially one who knows how what to sing and how to sing it. The best ones know which arrangement works for them and has the confidence and skills to pull it off instead of trying to just copy another singer. They are like another musician, just playing their part. Having the ability to sing in key is one thing but a unique style and the ability to fit in with the rest of the band makes a big difference in how well the gig goes and how well everyone enjoys the music.

**franamico** · 04-07-2010, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by eddue

Having a good arrangement is great but sometimes you have to work with a lot less and be expected to perform well.

I am a substitute bass player for a few local groups, playing all types of music. A lot of working bands don't have written arrangements and just call tunes from fake books or from memory or songs downloaded from the internet with all the wrong chords, often because they have been together for a while and everyone but you knows their own music. Sometimes the gig is just for one night and with little or no rehearsal. Often the singer wants a different key than whats written and won't tell you that the intro or ending is something that he/she worked up on their own and expect you to get it. And more times than not, the singer dictates what the band will play.

These are the type of gigs that are the most common. And if you don't do well you don't get call backs or referrals. This is where all those jam sessions you have been going to over the years come in handy. The hardest part is transposing while reading a fake book chart.

Not an ideal situation but too common if you are a working musician.

The ironic thing is, the better you do in these bad situations the more of these bad gigs you will be offered.

That's exactly what I mean...
Participating to jam sessions can be fun but
You must always remember that you have lots of options
to choose from.
The big risk is that you can end up spending years
playing these types of gigs only because you need money.

In the end you'll have a few bucks in your pocket and very
little time for the music you like the most...

So, every so often you might want to ask yourself
what your direction is as a musician and if you are
spending your time doing what you love.

**eddue** · 04-07-2010, 11:20 PM

Franamico

You make a few good points but one thing I want to mention. Once you get used to playing these types of gigs there is one benefit. Even though the pay may be lower, when you factor in no rehearsal or prep time, you may may be getting paid more for your time. Some singers or bands have 2 or 3 or more rehearsals before a gig and when you add up your time and expenses you may be actually making less. It's always better to have a good arrangement but that usually means more unpaid time to learn your part and work things out with other band members.

And even the best musical arrangement means nothing if the musical director isn't capable making it work.

Sometimes the less time spent on a project, the better.

**franamico** · 04-08-2010, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by eddue

Franamico

You make a few good points but one thing I want to mention. Once you get used to playing these types of gigs there is one benefit. Even though the pay may be lower, when you factor in no rehearsal or prep time, you may may be getting paid more for your time. Some singers or bands have 2 or 3 or more rehearsals before a gig and when you add up your time and expenses you may be actually making less. It's always better to have a good arrangement but that usually means more unpaid time to learn your part and work things out with other band members.

And even the best musical arrangement means nothing if the musical director isn't capable making it work.

Sometimes the less time spent on a project, the better.

I understand...
And in reply to your point let me ask you...
Do you really need to play? does the world need another guitar player?

I personally think that there is no need for another bored guitar player in this world. So if you have to play the guitar, have fun and play what you love. People will be inspired by your original music.

**eddue** · 04-08-2010, 09:05 PM

Actually, I am a bass player. While I don't have to play every gig that comes along (and I don't) I do want to make a living playing music. And I realize there are good gigs and not so good gigs. It's hard to make a living here, I also work as an auto tech and an electrician, but even with those skills it difficult. I am sure that there are many musicians with day jobs here. If it was up to me, I'd only play music. That being said, the best music gigs I have had don't always pay the best, especially the jazz gigs. So I take the better paying jobs to make a good living, and also take the low paying (or no paying) gigs because I want to play them. It all balances out in the end.

My other jobs aren't so rewarding but I do them to make a living, even though they are somewhat dangerous.

Playing behind a singer with bad arrangements, while not my ideal gig, is easy in comparison. Just get through the gig, help them sound as good as possible, get paid and you are done.

**franamico** · 04-09-2010, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by eddue

Actually, I am a bass player. While I don't have to play every gig that comes along (and I don't) I do want to make a living playing music. And I realize there are good gigs and not so good gigs. It's hard to make a living here, I also work as an auto tech and an electrician, but even with those skills it difficult. I am sure that there are many musicians with day jobs here. If it was up to me, I'd only play music. That being said, the best music gigs I have had don't always pay the best, especially the jazz gigs. So I take the better paying jobs to make a good living, and also take the low paying (or no paying) gigs because I want to play them. It all balances out in the end.

My other jobs aren't so rewarding but I do them to make a living, even though they are somewhat dangerous.

Playing behind a singer with bad arrangements, while not my ideal gig, is easy in comparison. Just get through the gig, help them sound as good as possible, get paid and you are done.

Ok let's be constructive here...

I think that everybody in the forum would benefit from reading about our experience with with singers.

As a bass player, what is your approach to these kinds of gigs? what do you do? do you like adding vamps? ostinatos? would you like to share your experience?

**eddue** · 04-09-2010, 09:54 PM

As a bassist backing a vocalist, my main job is to just to set the mood and tempo of a song. It's all about keeping time while following the vocalist. If the singer is good my job is easy.I just listen and let them do the the song and just keep up and support them. Even though I keeping the time (with or without a drummer) I listen to the singer and notice if he/she is keeping up with the music or getting ahead or falling behind. Most of the time the rest of the band will follow the bass so I try to provide the proper cue to let them know when something is happening, the verse is ending and the chorus or bridge is coming etc. I keep the time flexible to allow the singer or lead instrument room to sustain notes of phrases.

With some singers I have to be ready in case they somehow skip a verse, sing a different song or go to the chorus instead of the bridge. In those cases I have to decided whether to continue on or just go to where they are. It's just a matter of keeping things going until they catch up or find their place

When playing with a guitar or piano, I sometimes avoid playing thirds and extension notes to let them define the chords. Other times I just play a rhythmic pattern to contrast their comping or chording.

It's all about making the others feel comfortable and relaxed. And keeping the music going.

**franamico** · 04-10-2010, 08:07 AM

Nice post.
Yes, as a guitar player, my job is enormously easier when the bass player provides the rhythmic ideas. I can then feel free to add colour with chords of "double stops".

**eddue** · 04-10-2010, 01:05 PM

It's about working with others. Regardless of their abilities I try to make everyone play or sing well. Sometimes people will surprise you. A below average sing with bad charts might occasionally have a great night. I feel like it's my job to help that happen. And less experienced players might be able to bring something different or helpful to a session.

I take things one song at a time and try to be open minded. And never worry about the little things.

**Jonzo** · 09-06-2014, 05:46 PM

Learn to sing.

**Greentone** · 09-06-2014, 06:25 PM

These posts are priceless. We all have played for singers...whose real purpose is to be eye candy. Heck, I learned that expression from a singer.

There are exceptions. I used to accompany a guy who was the original owner of my guitar. In fact, years before, he was guitarist for one of the big bands. He understood what I was doing and it was always a pleasure setting him up to sing. A solo meant four bars, but that was okay.

then, again, I have been that singer. I wonder if the other musicians worry if I understand a chart?

**Jonzo** · 09-06-2014, 11:01 PM

I find the OP symptomatic of everything that is wrong with jazz today.

**Flyin' Brian** · 09-07-2014, 01:30 AM

I have absolutely no problem with a singer who wants to do some songs, brings some basic charts with changes and then asks me to put together an arrangement on the spot....maybe an intro of some sort then a short exchange if they want a solo and if they plan on coming back on the "A" section after the solo or skipping to the "B" section.

Sometimes they'll simply turn around and say "tag" at the end, or sometimes they'll look at me for that direction. But it all happens in real time and it pretty much always works out. The spontaneity is what makes it fun.

Maybe I've just been lucky with singers, although I know several who would STRONGLY object to being considered nothing more than eye candy..and with good reason.

**SuperFour00** · 09-07-2014, 02:21 AM

If you're a Jazz guitarist, you should "know tunes", that's Jazz talk for: at least 500 standards and Jazz tunes memorized and transposeable. Look at the singer's list and circle (with pencil) all the tunes you know very well. That should be a big part of the list if it's a Jazz singer. Those are the tunes for the first gig, work on new ones on your own time for the next gig. Ask your experienced professional musician friends about "knowing tunes". If you don't know tunes, that's OK, you're a relative beginner and shouldn't be criticizing any singers unless they are out of pitch, or don't stay in one key. This is just part of the job. It allows us to show up at gigs and, if no one brought real arrangements, call tunes, key, count off, piece of cake. If you know tunes, simply pick the tunes the singer does that you know well, no problemo.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-07-2014, 10:34 AM

I dunno. I work with untrained singers all the time--high school level. They don't know their keys, how to write a chart...they might show up the night of the performance with a cold and need everything you worked on for a semester in a lower key.

So you do it. Its a challenge. Challenges are fun. Its part of being a musician.

Plus, for working with singers I think the list is smaller than 500...maybe as small as 100-200...learn your singer's tunes. It makes you better.

**targuit** · 09-07-2014, 11:01 AM

Seems like much ado about nothing. Most of the popular standards were written for musicals or for singers to sing with instrumental accompaniment. As for eye candy, that's fine but if the Honey cannot sing, you won't be getting more gigs. Besides, if you are a competent guitarist, you should be able to transpose on the fly. No excuses. That includes your solo.