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  1. #201
    LOVELY ! This video is a perfect example of one person controlling all aspects of the piece. What a horrible way of making music!

    I remember doing a recording session where as a guitarist I was brought in to make the feel of the track more Rock Feel. The engineer keyboardist and producer who did everything else, proceeded to clean up all the imperfections as he perceived them. From extra noise from distortion, slight time imperfections.
    I told him that's what makes it Rock and Roll.

    By the way name any current Classical compositions that even verge on the greats? Again this isnt just Rock, Pop, Country, Jazz, Blues.

    But after all of my posts and taking in various arguments, I think I have a clearer understanding why some of you don't get it. You mostly are part timers who haven't had enough gig experience both live and in the studio.
    When you do something for a living for a long time you understand how it works both good and bad.

    I interesting how the generation 35 and under look at life through their computer devices. I now know why I have such disdain for the Iphone.

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  3. #202

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  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57

    But after all of my posts and taking in various arguments, I think I have a clearer understanding why some of you don't get it. You mostly are part timers who haven't had enough gig experience both live and in the studio.
    When you do something for a living for a long time you understand how it works both good and bad.
    Your "living" has died out because you lack the new skills.

    It's boring here. Lets get it on!

  5. #204
    Glad you all get to play Rock Star on your video game kids! Let me know when you an actually play for real!
    And also try that with anything from Pro Sports and Pro anything else. See how far you get before you're laughed off the stage or audition!

  6. #205

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    Gosh, you're so amateur at trolling. Try better. Not engaged now.

  7. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    LOVELY ! This video is a perfect example of one person controlling all aspects of the piece. What a horrible way of making music!

    I remember doing a recording session where as a guitarist I was brought in to make the feel of the track more Rock Feel. The engineer keyboardist and producer who did everything else, proceeded to clean up all the imperfections as he perceived them. From extra noise from distortion, slight time imperfections.
    I told him that's what makes it Rock and Roll.

    By the way name any current Classical compositions that even verge on the greats? Again this isnt just Rock, Pop, Country, Jazz, Blues.

    But after all of my posts and taking in various arguments, I think I have a clearer understanding why some of you don't get it. You mostly are part timers who haven't had enough gig experience both live and in the studio.
    When you do something for a living for a long time you understand how it works both good and bad.

    I interesting how the generation 35 and under look at life through their computer devices. I now know why I have such disdain for the Iphone.
    Here we go again, everything is shit, why even bother?

    Look music isn't the SAME as it was in the PAST, if it was it would be an homage, and that would not really be GREAT MUSIC.

    OTOH if it's new, it's DIFFERENT and can't be JUDGED by the same aesthetic criteria. You sound like the people complaining about how Charlie Parker or John Coltrane or whoever killed jazz. They killed a style of music, and then there was a new style of music.

    There are plenty of modern composers whose music I would rather listen to than what I think of as unutterably boring compositions by people like Schumann, Telleman (oh my god he is shit), Debussy (I know he's a genius, I just don't like his music) or any range of non descript formulaic jobsworths of the 18th century of their 19th and early 20th century heirs, the writers of endless dull symphonies that BBC Radio 3 insists tormenting me with in their mid afternoon playlists. Who listens to this shit?

    David Bruce is one of them. The guy is an excellent, accessible modern composer who I think has a lot of originality and spark. Caroline Shaw is another.

    Even the greats have moments of stunning mediocre tedium. Have you ever tried sitting through the Christmas Oritorio by Bach? I had to make my excuses and leave after 45 minutes. It's as bad as the less endurable stretches of the fucking White Album. Want to learn how to make a fucking double album without adding in absolute dross, Beatles? Go and listen to Kendrick.

    Also, Maxwell's Silver Hammer. Fuck you, McCartney. The epic turd curled perfectly on the otherwise masterpiece that is Abbey Road. (And yes I do include Octopus's Garden in that. It's a charming children's song.)

    Now in the parlance of the youg'un's - OK Boomer *mike drop*

  8. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Glad you all get to play Rock Star on your video game kids! Let me know when you an actually play for real!
    And also try that with anything from Pro Sports and Pro anything else. See how far you get before you're laughed off the stage or audition!
    It was my understanding that you can't get any gigs and no one is asking you to make a recording with them. Isn't that one of the main reasons for your anger? That people you believe are hacks ARE getting work and you're just a lonely guy ranting on the internet?

  9. #208

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  10. #209

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  11. #210

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    If you want to get paid, you have to do something that someone is willing to pay for. The vast majority of people are not wiling to pay to listen to a guitar player play old jazz. That's just a fact, and you may as well face it. The music that sells now is not the music that sold last year. Disco is dead, and jazz has been dead a lot longer. It matters less than a hill of beans how long you've been a professional. That has no bearing at all. What others play, or how well they compose or play music, also does not matter. The only thing that matters is whether you can attract customers to pay to hear you play. Ranting on the internet will not change things, it only makes you look foolish. Old men have been ranting about this same subject for centuries, and I expect they will be doing it for centuries more. I know the music I like is almost a century out of date, but I recognize that, and don't' expect anyone else to like what I like. I also don't like much of the music composed lately, but that's my problem, if it is a problem. That doesn't mean it's worthless, just that I don't like it. I'm old. I'm a boomer. Probably less than .01% of the people in the world like the music I like. And I'm fine with that.

  12. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    An honest question with good intent: If we continue down the road with electronic music replacing live musicians, how do we grow personally/musically when our musical feedback is set, clearly delineated and from a machine? I ask this since my greatest personal growth(after I acquired my technical skills on both woodwinds and guitar) as a working musician outside of Classical Music(Jazz/R&B,Funk/Soul/Bossa) was the interplay I had with other serious musicians. I couldn't count the times one of the band members said something musically that opened a new window into my playing. And,even today, I would rather take a little less for a gig ,personally, and hire another player(s), than play with canned music. However, for the last 28 years, I have played solo and on rare occasion with a vocalist(Bossa). Perhaps someone can explain.
    Good playing . . . Marinero
    I detest working with digital rhythms. Whether it's swing, funk or skank, computers just don't deliver. Back in the 90s when I had the home studio, I never bought a drum machine. I bought a good metronome, put it into the cans, and pulled drums tones up onto my keyboard. Two tracks, one with kick and toms, the other with snare and cymbals (all for sake of EQ), but tracked live and played by hand so that if I needed swing, funk, or skank, I could supply it.

    I may or may not be in the minority here, I dunno, but I firmly believe that the digital era has really reduced the musicality of what we hear nowadays. I've yet to hear a drum program that can respond to, say, a Stan Getz or Chick Corea head, where the beat is all over the place but it still makes sense -- without going wooden.

  13. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    But after all of my posts and taking in various arguments, I think I have a clearer understanding why some of you don't get it. You mostly are part timers who haven't had enough gig experience both live and in the studio.
    When you do something for a living for a long time you understand how it works both good and bad.
    I think this says it in a nutshell, (translation: "I'm an ex pro and that means I'm the authority and you don't know sh!t".

    Personally IDGAF if OP played rhythm on a bunch of tracks back in the day, legit resume, sure, but that doesn't make his ears and mind superior to anybody. Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of what he says on the subject but even though there's a ton of crap out there, I've hit this thread several times with some of the rare decent songwriting going on, yet rather than accept defeat ......

  14. #213

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    The "drum program" is in the hands of the programmer. If you don't like it, thats fair. They are getting smarter though. The programmers. I bet in 2050 or so, there are no live drummers left. Cant beat the dead drummer.

    In "pop" that is.

    Or whatever. You know, when not caring about how the world works, its a whole new world. Easy.

  15. #214

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    jads57,

    If you would agree that there is some new good music out there (people say there is, "You just have to look for it!"), I would agree that the big tragic sadness between then and now is that back then you didn't have to look for it - it was everywhere all the time, we were immersed in it.

  16. #215

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    But whats wrong with having to look around?

  17. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    it was everywhere all the time, we were immersed in it.

    Funny enough that is the same thing my kids tell me these days

  18. #217
    The good thing is I quit doing the Pop gigs 5 years ago. When I had to play with tracks along with the band, that iced it for me. It was like going to Kindergarten all over again and paint by crayon numbers, YUCK!
    And the Music wasn't even 4 chords that made any sense at all musically.

    If this is what music has become and accepted as legit, I feel sorry for you! Sure it's entertainment but no musical sense or talent in any way!
    This along with money taken out of the equation has killed music in all fields,including Jazz.

    There is no real Swing or Groove that compares to when real experienced musicians create it playing live together on stage or studio.
    Prince and Michael Jackson are good examples of when it started to go off the rails. Production and plugins were used to spice up the track along with musicians. But it was fake in many ways, and really never grooved as hard as
    say Tower of Power, James Brown, even Average White Band,LOL!

    The same with all other genres as well. The same thing occurred to make more money and create Disneyfied excitement. And the fact that it sold is all that mattered to the bean counters. So if this is your idea of Cool! Please have at it all you like, and Count me out.
    It's not about being old, it's about music and groove. And if you can't tell the difference I feel sorry for you , and no amount of trying to show the difference is going to help.

  19. #218

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    As someone once said, "It takes a really good drummer to be better than no drummer".

  20. #219

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    Why the fuck you think the real groove is gone? Its not! People do it! All day long.

  21. #220

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    Is this the most epic 'get off my lawn' thread ever?

  22. #221
    As I've said before way too many amateurs posting opinions they have no real knowledge in, or time in the saddle.

    At least when I was younger ,even though I had no real knowledge of certain harder genres of music like Jazz. I definitely understood why they thought the newer music was to simpleton for them. And I still held them in High Regard and tried to actually learn from them.

    Most notable quote from a great Jazz pianist in L.A. "Swings like a Turd in a Punch Bowl!" Definitely seems to apply to almost all the newer stuff.

  23. #222

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    I'm 65, and when that nostalgia hits me hard, I have to go back and recharge my creative spark with some of that older high quality pop music of my youth.


  24. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    As someone once said, "It takes a really good drummer to be better than no drummer".
    I believe that was Chet Baker. Explains why so many of his later recordings were trios with no drummer.

  25. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Is this the most epic 'get off my lawn' thread ever?
    To me it is one of the most inspiring threads on this forum. Hard to find a clearer cause for respecting your fellow man, being grateful and doing your best to fill the slot life offers you. That life is about people and not ideologies, systems or structures.


    If you don't you'll just go the way of the Dodo and die out miserable and alone. By far one of the better threads in a long time


  26. #225

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  27. #226

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  28. #227

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    Once again, the Herd is dumping on Jads. Their Herd offers protection, security, sameness, predictability, singularity of mind, confirmation, deindividuation, and the inability to coalesce the past and presence in objective criteria. They are smug, righteous and determined and their pathway ,as illustrative in History, always leads to the bottom. But they have a voice in a world where standards continue to decline in the Arts and the "least common denominator" is the norm. Whether we look at Painting, Music, Literature . . . there is a decline in talent and ability and "sameness" becomes the working narrative. No philosophical Mumbo Jumbo can change this reality. If you can't see it . . . fine. This is a world where the one-eyed Man is king. Good playing . . . Marinero

  29. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Once again, the Herd is dumping on Jads. Their Herd offers protection, security, sameness, predictability, singularity of mind, confirmation, deindividuation, and the inability to coalesce the past and presence in objective criteria. They are smug, righteous and determined and their pathway ,as illustrative in History, always leads to the bottom. But they have a voice in a world where standards continue to decline in the Arts and the "least common denominator" is the norm. Whether we look at Painting, Music, Literature . . . there is a decline in talent and ability and "sameness" becomes the working narrative. No philosophical Mumbo Jumbo can change this reality. If you can't see it . . . fine. This is a world where the one-eyed Man is king. Good playing . . . Marinero
    What I see is mindless rambling of old farts, by people that are no longer relevant (if they ever were).

    But I do support good playing. This is the advise I gave from the start; stop with the rants, pick up your guitar and play the music that moves your soul!
    Last edited by jameslovestal; 05-19-2020 at 09:36 PM.

  30. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    What I see is mindless rambling of old farts, but people that are no longer relevant (if they ever were).

    But I do support good playing. This is the advise I gave from the start; stop with the rants, pick up your guitar and play the music that moves your soul!
    James,
    I didn't think it existed . . . but I am now convinced that YOU are a Seer. Congratulations on your unusual abilities to know the lives of people you don't know or have ever met. Perhaps, you missed your calling . . . let me tell you about a Gypsy woman I once knew who told me . . .
    Good playing . . . Marinero

  31. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    James,
    I didn't think it existed . . . but I am now convinced that YOU are a Seer. Congratulations on your unusual abilities to know the lives of people you don't know or have ever met. Perhaps, you missed your calling . . . let me tell you about a Gypsy woman I once knew who told me . . .
    Good playing . . . Marinero
    Stop being an idiot. It is Jads and you that are the ones that claim to know about the lives of an entire generation of musicians (those younger than yourself): That they don't want to make what you define as good music. That they just do so to make money or to show off or to get popular.

    You dismiss this entire generation as hacks and phonies.

  32. #231
    Thanks for the comments Marinero! Younger folks are usually impatient and eager to show their prowess before they are ready. I know this all to well by my experiences over the many years of playing music and living life.

    But a couple experiences at a younger age by getting to share a stage with older great musicians like Eric Gravatt (drummer extraordinaire) and a few others as well, taught me it's a discipline that takes a lifetime to master. And I'm far from it still even in my 60s.

    The main point is that this time around it's all different due to technology. And I would never be inspired to pursue music since its so driven by technology rather than people working together. Very little improvisation nowadays or even daring in arrangements.

    Friends of mine who made good livings writing jingles and doing gigs have all But given up do the lack of funding and competing with kids who live in their parents basements, lol!
    And mind you these are people who do national work like Prairie Home Companion, National acts, National Jingles, Broadway Shows,etc. These are serious professional with long resumes. Very Sad day for music indeed!

  33. #232

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    Just got a roll with it.

    I mostly like musicians playing original music, for me great musicians playing over tired old standards, that doesn't excite me much. And that's what I see the really good improvisors doing around these parts for the most part. Such a waste of talent and skill.

    I like finding good young players, there is something about the youth... Probably not to jads standards, but I like it... I also prefer music with vocals and like I said songwriters playing their own music.


  34. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Stop being an idiot. It is Jads and you that are the ones that claim to know about the lives of an entire generation of musicians (those younger than yourself): That they don't want to make what you define as good music. That they just do so to make money or to show off or to get popular.

    You dismiss this entire generation as hacks and phonies.

    Hi, J,
    So, if we use your above remarks as a basis for taste in music, please simply list your top five young musicians/groups in the last 30 years that you believe are on par with artists like John Coltrane, Chet Baker, Wes Montgomery, Zoot Sims, Thelonius Monk, or vocalists as Johnny Hartman, Sarah Vaughan, Billie Holiday, Shirley Horn, or Dinah Washington as they were developing their careers. Perhaps I missed something.

    Good playing . . . Marinero

    P.S. When you use derogatory terms like "idiot" in polite conversations, you lower the level of serious discourse. It points to a failure in you to be able to effectively communicate your ideas in a rational, civil and intelligent manner . . . especially when there is no reason to do so other than you disagree with another's point of view or perhaps, cannot think of a reasonable, well-honed response to one's remarks. M

  35. #234

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    I can’t but help people who say this sort of stuff have limited exposure to different styles, traditions and ways of making music.

    Like people who talk about ‘great composers’ and reel off the usual 18th-19th century canon...

  36. #235

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    [QUOTE=christianm77;1034495]I can’t but help people who say this sort of stuff have limited exposure to different styles, traditions and ways of making music.

    Like people who talk about ‘great composers’ and reel off the usual 18th-19th century canon...[/QUOTE.


    Hi, C,
    I think the above statement is unfair since I merely asked James for a comparable list of younger musicians of the same caliber as my list. New is not always better . . . just sometimes NEW. That's why I asked James for a simple list. He should easily be able to provide one based on his remarks and personal tastes. I hope this discussion continues on a high level since much could be gained from the discourse. It has been very interesting to date. Thanks for your reply. Good playing . . . Marinero

  37. #236

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    Joey Alexander when he was 12, he's 16 now. If you don't know who he his you really haven't been paying attention.




  38. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, C,
    I think the above statement is unfair since I merely asked James for a comparable list of younger musicians of the same caliber as my list. New is not always better . . . just sometimes NEW. That's why I asked James for a simple list. He should easily be able to provide one based on his remarks and personal tastes. I hope this discussion continues on a high level since much could be gained from the discourse. It has been very interesting to date. Thanks for your reply. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Marinero .. Your list is the problem.

    That is not a list of greatness, that is just your generational taste in music.


    And that my dear friend is the problem with you and jads. All your examples are locked into this little pocket of time that was mainstream in YOUR youth.

    And this thread has a plethora of great new music. Yet all of those examples have been ignored or more often dismissed as being shitty from jazzy guitar oriented people like Julian Lage and Antoine Boyer or more mainstream stuff. There is also a wealth of new classical music we could draw on.

    But was the music of your youth really the pinnacle of music performance? I mean Shirley Horn and Zoot Sims?

    That is the problem .. The two of you just toot in a few decades of 20th century music and claim that it was great. But the only thing that make it greater than music of today was that it was in an esthetic you like.

    Then you try to insist on getting paid for still playing that kind of esthetic 40 years later and are surprised that no one is willing to pay you. (maybe more a jads thing than you, but definately a theme here)

    But tell me, where is the music of the early 20th century .. You try to tell me that Zoot Sims is better than Rachmaninoff and Shostakovic? Are you sure that the music you so proudly speak off isn't a pale watered down version of the music that came before it?


    I tend to have the share opinions with both Christian and James here. Maybe you're not idiots, but just navel gazing boomers. But that is in current terminology is a lot worse actually ... Would much prefer to be called an idiot than a boomer as the idiot can't help himself


    No offence, but you are being silly if nothing else

  39. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Joey Alexander when he was 12, he's 16 now. If you don't know who he his you really haven't been paying attention.




    Good example. And, yes . . . I've been following Joey for years. Good playing . . . Marinero

  40. #239

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    "But tell me, where is the music of the early 20th century .. You try to tell me that Zoot Sims is better than Rachmaninoff and Shostakovic? Are you sure that the music you so proudly speak off isn't a pale watered down version of the music that came before it?" Lobomov

    Hi, L,
    This is called a non-sequitur fallacy in Philosophy. You are lumping two very different genres of music(Jazz/Classical) as an example for your views much as when someone would compare Ozzie Osbourne ,say, to Segovia. Further, why are you so mute that you cannot provide a simple list of 5 great Jazz musicians in the last 30 years? You can't keep making general statements without providing some concrete examples. However, I certainly agree with Fep's mention of Joey Alexander. Good playing . . . Marinero

  41. #240

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    [QUOTE=Marinero;1034499]
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I can’t but help people who say this sort of stuff have limited exposure to different styles, traditions and ways of making music.

    Like people who talk about ‘great composers’ and reel off the usual 18th-19th century canon...[/QUOTE.


    Hi, C,
    I think the above statement is unfair since I merely asked James for a comparable list of younger musicians of the same caliber as my list. New is not always better . . . just sometimes NEW. That's why I asked James for a simple list. He should easily be able to provide one based on his remarks and personal tastes. I hope this discussion continues on a high level since much could be gained from the discourse. It has been very interesting to date. Thanks for your reply. Good playing . . . Marinero
    It's a low level thread to start with. It doesn't warrant high level discussion.

  42. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "But tell me, where is the music of the early 20th century .. You try to tell me that Zoot Sims is better than Rachmaninoff and Shostakovic? Are you sure that the music you so proudly speak off isn't a pale watered down version of the music that came before it?" Lobomov

    Hi, L,
    This is called a non-sequitur fallacy in Philosophy. You are lumping two very different genres of music(Jazz/Classical) as an example for your views much as when someone would compare Ozzie Osbourne ,say, to Segovia. Further, why are you so mute that you cannot provide a simple list of 5 great Jazz musicians in the last 30 years? You can't keep making general statements without providing some concrete examples. However, I certainly agree with Fep's mention of Joey Alexander. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Ahh .. So we are only talking one specific genre that is out of favor?


    You don't care about music in general and all is constricted to only jazz .. everything else doesn't matter.


    You know like discussing that there has been no good jazz clarinet players since Benny Goodman


    The thing is that now that the genre is out of favor in mainstream, you can't really acquire world wide fame playing jazz,

    But still plenty of great jazz players made their debut the last 30 years. If we limit ourselves to guitar, you've already ignored Julian Lage and Antoine Boyer .. How about Lage Lund, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Gilad Hekselman, Jesse van Ruler or even someone more groovy cat like Wayne Kranz that is absolutely great.

    Great music is still being made .. you're just choosing to ignore it .. or make jumps insisting that is has to be old school jazz, cos no other music than old school jazz matters


    Jazz is no longer top tier entertainment, but plenty of great jazz musicians exist and great music is being made.

  43. #242

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    Well, guitar players? Where do we start?

    You want original and amazing, you could do worse than check out Reiner Baas.




    In terms of any style of guitar you care to mention the bar has been raised to a very high level.

    Beyond the guitar, you need to check out this guy

  44. #243

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    Here's some other things








  45. #244

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  46. #245

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    I'll not entertain any global objective assertions, but subjectively those three examples are to my ear more heralds of the death of music, not just jazz.

  47. #246

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    lot of NPR tiny desk concerts lol.




  48. #247

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    I find the Laura Mvula in particular to be remarkably original.

  49. #248

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    Speaking of trained composers





    Heres some Caroline Shaw


    David Bruce

  50. #249
    While I've repeatedly have stated there is no lack of technically great musicians amongst younger players. There is a huge void in song writing and groove! This is for all genres.
    And while all generations need their HERO'S. I don't find any in the Musical Mold of the past i.e. Louis Armstrong, John Coltrane, Jaco Pastoius, Jimi Hendrix.

    The difference is not their technical skills, but their Soul and Song Writing. I find a lack of Soul in most of the newer musicians. And for me that is the connection that matters most!

    By the way a lot of the newer Hipster Hero's are what a freind of mine used to refer to Art Students experimenting with Synthesizers ! Same with Velvet Underground in Andy Warhol movement of the 1960s

  51. #250

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    Bloody love this record


    And this one


    Here's Chris Thile playing Bach


    And covering Billie Eilish


    Might want to listen to Chris has to say here. He is better than you. TBF he is better than almost everyone alive.