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Well imperative is the wrong word.... but it’s kind of the thing if you want to get good at standards. Swing music and trad helped as well because the changes are undecorated and easier to hear.
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10-20-2019 04:40 PM
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[QUOTE=christianm77;984316]A lot of them - most of them - don’t really. There are a few genuinely unusual tunes. Stella is one. Hardly any tunes start on a dim chord. Also the form is quite sophisticated. But there’s not many of them when you start to look at the GASB in totality.
That’s why it’s imperative to have played through a few hundred tunes. A lot of the patterns don’t seem like patterns until you’ve seen a lot of repertoire.
Is that bVI7 chord in Out of Nowhere unusual? Is Just Friends weird for starting on chord IV? Is I remember You a bit funny for going I - VII7 - I? Depends how many tunes you’ve seen....[/QUOTE
Nobody, except for obese accordionists with bad toupees and day gigs as bra salesmen (don't laugh, I knew one), played the I dim. chord on Stella.
The songwriter was just copying the operetta style that show music came from. If a keyboard player played that change on a gig, I'd walk over to him, puke on his keyboard, and then tell him to go back to the Liberace workshop he's been running.
The boppers made a tune that no one in their right mind would play, hipper and better to blow on with their subs on that tune.
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[QUOTE=sgcim;984330]
lol man I love this shix
Originally Posted by christianm77
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Hmm. It doesn't seem that way to me. To check, I pulled up a list of the last bunch of standards I practiced with IrealPro (which turns out to have a history file). In order: Originally Posted by christianm77
Once I Loved. Several key changes and a unique transition to the bridge.
Lady Be Good. Nothing unusual
The Odd Couple. Bar 9 is not commonplace.
Night and Day. I find this one easy to hear, but I can't think, offhand, of another tune with something like bars 9-12.
How High The Moon. Not difficult to hear.
How Insensitive. Not a common progression.
If all this seems simple and completely easy to hear based on knowing a couple of hundred standards, that's great. Doesn't seem that way to me.
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[QUOTE=sgcim;984330]
i would kiss the accordionist (post facto) that played the diminished instead of the minor II V (plus ensuing deceptive cadences) and I expect you (Christian) would too. I think (sorry guys) many jazz guitarists have never studied really basic harmony (e.g. Paul Hindemith) and they see a lot of what they are studying as rather difficult or somehow on the edge but really it is not. Once you grasp tri-tone substitutions, V of Vs, and diminished substitutions for dominant chords you are a long way there. A lot of this is contained in Hindemith and even Eddie Lang's method book written in the 20s. So much of jazz is dressing up basic traditional harmony. I love jazz for that but my god the convoluted discussions could be avoided if people just took 2 or 3 months and worked through some basic classical harmony texts. If you listen to early 20th century classical - even late 19th century stuff - there is nothing new in Parker, Miles, Bill Evans etc. The styles are different but the basic knowledge is the same. Start from the basics and the tried and true and move from there. Originally Posted by christianm77
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[QUOTE=Roberoo;984359]
I have come to the conclusion that a gentleman knows the first chord is a dim7, but chooses not to be a dick about it on the bandstand :-) besides almost everyone plays ii v on records. Originally Posted by sgcim
Stella is an interesting one because it’s chock full of long diatonic appoggiaturas. These get written as extensions in jazz charts. Except for the ‘11ths’ on the major chords for some reason lol.
To me jazz harmony is actually based on a misunderstanding or rereading of Western harmony. Partly it’s because jazz has always been a music of layers, harmonic, rhythmic and melodic.
I don’t know Hindemiths harmony book. Worth a read?
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Bridges are often where it gets interesting. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The night and Day long turnaround
F#m7b5 Fm6 Em7 Ebo7 etc
Actually turns up in quite a few tunes. Some of them, but not all by Cole Porter. Some jazz compositions as well. Djangology is a good example. Something similar in A Smooth One (Charlie c.) also a very useful sub - bearing in mind F#m7b5 is often used as a sub for C particularly in the second half of an ABAC form of the third repeat of an A (think they can’t take that away, I thought about you, misty etc) depending on the melody you might not want to use Green Dolphin Street last 4 style backcycling motion.
Non cadential turnaround movement like this is much more common in previous jazz. But bud Powell was a fan of this prog, used it for endings too.
How insensitive has a couple of unusual motions in it, specifically G7/B Bbmaj7. Also the move F7/C E7/B Bbmaj7. So the inverted dominant revolving as if it’s built on the bass note. Everything else is pretty standard....
It might seem a little convenient but I don’t really count Jobim tunes as standards in the GASB sense. However knowing your pre war harmony helps a lot with Jobim.
Lastly re: other tunes you have to listen to a versions of them, and check out the legit original version and where they are coming from. Very often something that looks weird is some sort of jazz reharm of something much more commonplace usually some sort of common tone diminished chord or an aug 6. Sometimes the melody is altered slightly for the reharm. This is true of Darn That Dream for instance.
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Btw Darn has
Em Em/D C#7b5 Cm6 Bm7b5 E7b9 Am
In G
Hopefully you can see how that relates to the N&D prog
Also Jobim has
F#m7b5 Fm9 C etc in Aguas de Marco
Jazz harmony is actually stamp collecting, but people think it’s physics.
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The issue of jazz as repertoire vs jazz as technique is constantly on my mind. But rather than hijack the thread too far, I would ask: Is there anyone who has successfully applied bebop technique and sensibility to popular tunes from the later part of the 20th and early 21st centuries? Are there serious jazz treatments of "Let it Go", "Circle of Life", "Under the Sea", etc? If not show tunes, Beatles tunes? James Taylor? Police? Eagles? Tom Petty? Nirvana? Britney Spears? Sinnead O'Connor? Coldplay? Byoncee? Whatever the f&*^ kids listen to now?
I don't mean novelty arrangements for quick chuckles. I mean arrangements made with the same kind of intensity and seriousness as the original bebop artist did in the 40's.
Does that exist?
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It's funny that people keep asking the question on a jazz forum, as if there aren't bands and artists who are famous for doing specifically this. Do they not listen to present day jazz? Do they not, for that matter, look at the thread (Nirvana tune above.) It's not even something restricted to obscure artists. Here is one of my favourite examples. It's not bebop, but then bebop is not really the way people play now. Originally Posted by rlrhett
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I don't think anything Cassandra Wilson has done is for quick chuckles either
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in concern of trad song form (which is often called AABA (and which I call just AB - after all there are only 2 full cadences in the basic form) I think there are two types:1) - the chorus is more individually elaborated harmony but at teh same time more stable harmonically and easier to memorize it - the bridge is not stable, modulating, more cliches - basically its function to take a step a side, to bring in some contrast, in taht case the bridge brings in some instability, some hezitation, in some sense it opens a possibility of something else 2) - the chorus is unstable, making tension, dense chromatic moves etc. - the bridge on the contraty using traditional and spacious harmony but again often a cliche of it... it functions as a contrast to the chorus again. But this time it works as a realese... Like Darn that Dream or Sophisticated Lady Originally Posted by christianm77
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[QUOTE=christianm77;984397]
Good classical musicians I know - when you show them 'jazz harmony' and say - this is that chord and this is that... they usually say: ok but it is just a triad with unresoved suspension (or anticipation) etc.It does not work in every context of course but it is often true.But I think the important point about it is that it became essential in jazz. At some turning point these 'suspensions' and 'anticipation' lost there classical functionality to some degree and became and integral part of vertical harmony and then another langauge began to form Originally Posted by Roberoo
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I’s funny that people are so steeped in their own experiences, their own interest, or their own mind that they can’t conceive that other people may not share their ideas and can’t help but sound pedantic and patronizing answering a question. Originally Posted by christianm77
“Famous”? Almost by definition if no one on a jazz focused forum knows what you are talking about, that it isn’t “fame”.
As for “they”, I can’t speak for others. I leave that to you. But to me that “Nirvana” recording is obscure, even if it doesn’t seem so to you. I listen to jazz daily, but also classical music, bluegrass, even the occasional pop tune. What I hear tend to be “standards” or original compositions that don’t build on well known tunes or melodies.
That said, I accept I don’t know the secret handshake to be in your club. If combing through “present day jazz” means seeking out obscure music not played on radio, Spotify, pandora, or the like, then yes. “They” don’t listen to present day jazz.
Oh, and if no one plays bebop anymore, then your answer to my question was simple: no. No one has taken hits from the second half the twentieth century and seriously applied a bebop technique and sensibilities. Pedant lecture unnecessary. I personally think the statement that “bebop is not really the way people play now” patently absurd. The most followed thread on this forum is about Barry Harris and how to play “like that”. But I’m not even in the cool kids jazz club, so I don’t know.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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I like it. Paradoxally this is probably how Joni would have done maybe 7-10 years later after the issue of original)))But still I like the original changes better... Joni has fantastic feel of harmony and melody... there is a late version of it with Joni and orchestra - I like how they arranged all 'those open chords' in orchestral style. Originally Posted by christianm77
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There is the Joe Pass Rolling Stones album, if that qualifies. Originally Posted by rlrhett
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Dave Stryker has made some albums of 70s pop tunes in a jazz style.
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Jim Mullen also does this kind of thing quite often, here it's a Steely Dan tune.
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Hey rp... Forms are the constructive and organizing elements in music. Forms are what create balance and symmetry in tunes and improvisation. The presentation, development and interrelationship of ideas. Not just the basic structure,(AABA), but also the techniques and procedures used to develop ideas within that basic structure. (there is a lot more) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Yea most amateur musicians don't get past the basic forms, or just working from a melody, embellishment approach etc. Having a good ear is obviously required to play, But for most that is just a technical skill that is developed from years of playing.(sometimes)
Understanding how to develop a good ear and how to develop music takes more than just years of playing. But who cares.
Roberoo... YEA...getting some basic musicianship and understanding Functional Harmony... obviously helps. Maybe more like 6 months and some heavy hours.... but it's all out there. And then maybe move past borrowing to modal concepts or expansion of basic tonality guidelines, which leads to 7th chords actually have organization, beyond triads. But that can just be common practice from Subs. usage.
rirhett... yes, check out Monty Alexander, Eliane Elias, Mike Ledonne, Joe Lock... just off the top of my head. I love to play pop tune for the masses and then work into jazz... obviously depending on audience.
As Christian was saying.. Jazz is just stamp collecting... well yea, there is only so much to work with, but how we use that BS is part of playing in a jazz style. Can be as simple as.... How and where you pull from for subs to create improv or develop the changes while comping. The playing with the form and rhythm of the basic tune to help create tension or just create a more layered references for improv.
Personally, it's a lot more entertaining to perform with musicians who have bebop technique... than be stuck in slow motion non sub-divide grooves... if they even happen at all. It's also fun to wake up a dinner house.
Famous jazz players... come on. that's almost an oxymoron.
So is it more embarrassing to not know the tune... or know it and sound like shit, or is that the same thing.
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I like Monty Alexander a lot. Here he is doing a Bob Marley tune, No Woman, No Cry. Originally Posted by Reg
And here is Monty with Ray Brown and Herb Ellis doing a jazz standard, When Lights Are Low.
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Yeah, my attitude might have been grumpy, but this is a thing that comes up a lot and people always seem to think they have made some significant observation by saying jazz musicians don't play modern pop songs. Well I don't actually think it's pedantic to say it's obviously untrue for anyone with even a cursory interest in what jazz musicians are doing now. You only have to know who Brad Mehldau is for instance. Originally Posted by rlrhett
Even Barry Harris plays Isn't She Lovely. And he plays bop on it.
So, no it's not like you need to be a total contemporary modern jazz buff. I'm not, there's loads of stuff I haven't checked out. It's more that - wow, playing pop songs from the post GASB era isn't even a massive deal for straightahead players.
If you think Robert Glasper is obscure, well, he isn't. He's worked with many of the big names in modern day hip hop and neo soul. He was a major feature on Kendrick Lamarr's To Pimp a Butterfly, one of the most highly critically rated albums of the past ten years, and also a massive chart success. Now that's not Ariana Grande, but it's not obscure. Certainly for a jazz musician.
So no, you don't have to be in the funny handshake club, you just have a vague interest in what's been going on in modern music. And no one's saying you have to be interested in modern music. And if you want to grumpy about it, sure, that can be a lot of fun. And one can spend a lifetime listening to Blue Note reissues.
Look, I know I'm being a dick here. But, my assholish is directed not at you specifically. This is something people say seemingly all the time on groups like this, and it's just boring the bejeesus out of me. Stop blaming imaginary musicians for something that isn't the case!Last edited by christianm77; 10-21-2019 at 05:15 PM.
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A more interesting question to ask, which may have been the one you intended is -
Is there something about the harmony of mid 20th century popular song that uniquely facilitates bebop language?
Maybe...
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Glasper's gorgeous reharm of Black Hole Sun (music at 3:35) warms this X-ellenial jazz heart tho.
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I still don't understand Reg and others' use of the term "form".
I get the feeling that they may be seeing something in the tunes that I'm not seeing, but I can't figure out what it is.
I know standards the same way I know Home on the Range. That is, for the tunes I know, I can hear the melody and harmony in my mind and my fingers find the chords.
The only part of this that seems like it might be dependent on something called "form" is being able to hear cadences of chords instead of hearing them individually. Is that what Reg and others are talking about?
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I think it’s to do with hearing the common progressions that crop up over and over again in many Standards. E.g. 1-6-2-5, or the change from major to relative minor (e.g. first few bars of Confirmation, or There will never be another you (same progression)), or the ‘backdoor’ progression, or the movement from I to IV via a ii-V (e.g. going into the bridge of Lady Be Good).
If you can recognise these then you don’t need to rely so much on remembering individual chords.
Bruce Forman calls these the ‘cycles’ and says he only needs to remember the melody of a tune, just knowing that is enough for him to know what the associated ‘cycles’ are within that tune. So he knows hundreds of tunes without having to memorise the chord changes.
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