How many Charlie Parker Tunes Do You Know?

**henryrobinett** · 03-22-2015, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Henry, if someone compared your music to vomit, would you not be offended?

He could have just said he doesn't like Bird, then none of this would have happened.

Exactly. No one called anyone else's music here vomit. And I think there has been someone who had less than gracious things to say about my music. It hurt, but you know, I had no retort. That was their opinion and in that light, they were correct.

**henryrobinett** · 03-22-2015, 02:20 PM

But if Bird's music DOES sound like vomit to him, so in the bloody hell what???? He can lie and say it sounds like urine or rain clouds or peaches. It's his OPINION. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO FORCE ANYONE TO HAVE ANOTHER.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-22-2015, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Dutchbopper

Your point being?

My point is, however the comment about Parker was worded, it wasn't a personal insult...doesn't means folks won't get upset...

Take my previous example of the baseball fans...now yell "white sox and irish catholics suck." Now you're looking at reconstructive dental surgery. There's a difference.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-22-2015, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

But if Bird's music DOES sound like vomit to him, so in the bloody well what???? He can lie and says its sounds like urine or rain clouds or peaches. It's his OPINION. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO FORCE ANYONE TO HAVE ANOTHER.

i agree.

and i wonder if Broyale actually thinks it sounds like 200mph vomit, or if he was sick enough of people telling him they "are sorry he can't hear it" that he decided to go for a real zinger.

**MarkRhodes** · 03-22-2015, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Broyale's having a tough time accepting jazz on OUR terms. Maybe he's doing just fine on his own. I don't know.

I like Broyale and wish him the best. But clearly he is not doing just fine on his own----his struggles make that plain. I commend him for being honest about them and think this is a sign he will develop something special. I certainly hope so. But I would also caution him that when one is 'young in the game' (-which could come at age 60, if one takes up a new interest then) it is better to say "I just don't get this" than to say to people who know much more that "X's playing sounds like vomit." It is not Parker's reputation which is damaged by such talk.

destinytot · 03-22-2015, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

So???!!!!!

I agree it's important not to demonize anyone for being tactless. But we're all accountable here, and I'd rather they were challenged in case silence is taken for approval.

Personally, I don't approve of likening Bird's playing to "note-vomit" because there are polite ways of expressing opinions and explaining views - i.e. ways that don't cause affront to anyone's dignity - and I'd rather see them used.

So the simile goes too far. Likening the man's playing to "note-vomit" shows contempt, and in a manner that's unfair, unnecessary and unsavoury.

(Oh, dear! Now I've made myself queasy...)

Dutchbopper · 03-22-2015, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

But if Bird's music DOES sound like vomit to him, so in the bloody well what???? He can lie and says its sounds like urine or rain clouds or peaches. It's his OPINION. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO FORCE ANYONE TO HAVE ANOTHER.

Well, most mathematical formulas look like bullshit to me but I would never call a renowned mathematician full of it.

By your standards, any opinion is sacred? Mmmm ... I completely and utterly disagree.

DB

destinytot · 03-22-2015, 02:54 PM

It is not Parker's reputation which is damaged by such talk.

Such talk is unpleasant to read, but how easily it's dissolved!

So... I've recently started using D'Andrea Pro-Plec 351, and I love playing with them. I think I'll start working on a couple of Parker heads this week.

**fumblefingers** · 03-22-2015, 03:06 PM

can we summarize by saying the following?: (1) there is no need to go out of one's way to disparage another's work of art, but (2) on the other hand it's perfectly allowable to do so.

if so, then maybe we can get back to this:

1. Given that "playing Parker heads" has been a staple for serious jazz students for decades now, what do we think of the merits and drawbacks of doing so?

2. Is it time to supplement Parker's works with another player's or composer's when developing one's vocabulary and capability, and if so who? (answer limited to 1-2 artists please)

3. Is it time to replace Parker's works with another player's or composer's when developing one's vocabulary and capability, and if so who? (answer limited to 1-2 artists please)

**mr. beaumont** · 03-22-2015, 03:35 PM

Good questions, FF.

As far as I'm concerned, almost everything about the jazz language, rhythmically and harmonically--or at least the first things any player should be learning, are right there in Parker. And while his stuff is a technical challenge, it's also straightforward enough that even a beginner can see what's going on in a lot of it...so in my opinion, its a perfect learning tool...

**grahambop** · 03-22-2015, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

and i wonder if Broyale actually thinks it sounds like 200mph vomit, or if he was sick enough of people telling him they "are sorry he can't hear it" that he decided to go for a real zinger.

Given that he has previously stated a dislike of jazz solos and improvisation generally, I think it's probably true that he just can't 'hear' Parker's stuff and so it really sounds that bad to him.

Which is a shame, but there it is. Actually I can understand someone finding Bird hard going, I did at first. I would be more concerned about the whole 'not liking solos/improvisation' thing, yet wanting to play jazz. It's a bit of a roadblock.

**KirkP** · 03-22-2015, 04:18 PM

Why not just ignore the vomit comment and get back to the OP's topic?
Maybe a sub-forum should be created to complain about other members. (Mostly kidding, but I wish it were so, so I could follow the topics without seeing the gripes.)

**grahambop** · 03-22-2015, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by KIRKP

Why not just ignore the vomit comment and get back to the OP's topic?
Maybe a sub-forum should be created to complain about other members. (Mostly kidding, but I wish it were so, so I could follow the topics without seeing the gripes.)

I confidently predict that would soon become the most popular sub-forum.

**grahambop** · 03-22-2015, 04:36 PM

Back on topic a bit here, one handy thing about playing Parker tunes is of course that once past the tricky head, generally it's either blues or rhythm changes. So if you can nail those 2 progressions, you can (in theory) tackle a lot of Parker tunes.

Dutchbopper · 03-22-2015, 04:46 PM

Ironically, I just posted a video interview of Jesse van Ruller in the "players" forum in which he states that his taste developed "backwards in time" and then went forward again. When Jesse van Ruller started his studies at the Hilversum conservatory, he actually disliked bebop and mainstream jazz guitar and had no clue about traditional jazz. He checked out a gig of his future teacher (Wim Overgaauw) but did not like it much. He was more into Scofield. Until he found out where it all came from. He had to look a bit further than his nose was long (Dutch expression).

DB

**Hep To The Jive** · 03-22-2015, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I looked into this and found a claim that "My Little Suede Shoes" is a contrafact of "Jeepers Creepers." Here are both tunes. (I love "Jeepers Creepers," by the way. Sinatra did a great job with it. Johnny Mercer lyrics tend to please me---such a crafty mix of the down-home and the uptown.)

Charlie Parker ? ?My Little Suede Shoes? / Jack Teagarden and Johnny Mercer ? ?Jeepers Creepers? | Listening To Now

Yeah I can hear similarity, but the melody is different enough, and the B section is very much original. Love both tunes, though. I think, harmonically alot of bebop tunes borrowed swing era progressions, just re wrote the heads.

**jzucker** · 03-22-2015, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Exactly. No one called anyone else's music here vomit. And I think there has been someone who had less than gracious things to say about my music. It hurt, but you know, I had no retort. That was their opinion and in that light, they were correct.

WTF are you talking about. Someone compared - arguably the most important improviser in history's play - to vomit.

And you're an apologist for that? And that's ok why? Cuz he's not a member of this pathetic forum?!? lol. Or is it because the cat is dead?!?

**jzucker** · 03-22-2015, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

But if Bird's music DOES sound like vomit to him, so in the bloody well what???? He can lie and says its sounds like urine or rain clouds or peaches. It's his OPINION. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO FORCE ANYONE TO HAVE ANOTHER.

So let me get this right...It's ok to call Bird's music vomit but if we call into question something broyale says, that's a violation of some chat-room ethic?!? Is that about the gist of it?

Nobody is denying him his right to free speech. He's welcome to say whatever he wants. Just don't expect people to take it lightly when someone comes into a charlie parker thread and compares his music to vomit.

**HighSpeedSpoon** · 03-22-2015, 07:40 PM

Soapbox alert ...

DB: Thanks very much for the clips. I'm sure I'll watch every one of them more than once. What better way for a guitarist to see Parker interpreted on guitar!?

Broyale: Just for the record, I don't agree with you about Parker, but I'm not upset with you either. You have been honest and courageous, and as an aspiring artist, you need to keep that voice alive inside you. OTOH I don't see how you can get the full benefit of this community without being more smoothly integrated into it, and that means not pushing peoples' buttons when you can find a way around them. Others have already pointed out ways to do this. Regardless of who is right or wrong, taking it easy on people pays off in the long run, so I hope you view caring about other members' feelings as winning - which it is - and not as capitulating.

Everyone: There has been an avalanche of poor manners in this thread. Poor manners are never necessary, and they never enhance the way we come across because they are simply not cool. If you think Broyale is a troll then report him. He had a small platform until we created a big platform for him.

Finally, this is a public forum, and whether we like it or not there are young people tuning in with no other example than the one we set. As you know, they don't see the whole us, but only what we write. So please give some weight to writing with the voice of a father they would like to know face-to-face, and not with the voice of an ill-tempered man at the other end of the internet. You will capture their attention better, teach them more effectively about Charlie Parker, and teach them about a lot more too.

Soapbox clear

Thanks for listening guys and apologies in advance if I put anyone off. You can throw e-bricks at me now if you want to, but I hope we can be better colleagues than that.

destinytot · 03-22-2015, 08:00 PM

So, Parker heads: it now seems to me that learning to play some is a rite of passage, in which case resistance is futile. Better to embrace it.

**Hep To The Jive** · 03-22-2015, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

So, Parker heads: it now seems to me that learning to play some is a rite of passage, in which case resistance is futile. Better to embrace it.

Right. That's apparently what it is for many. Practicing Donna Lee, so I can get it down cold, show off to my jazz colleagues, once it done I can relax and actually enjoy working on my Art Pepper tunes.

All jokes aside, I'm not the biggest Charlie Parker fan, but here and there I'd come across his solos that just so cooool! Like on Dizzy';s Atmosphere, right after the head... wow, the best, perfect solo! That one I actually learned and enjoyed for fun!

**princeplanet** · 03-22-2015, 09:36 PM

..., soooo, ignoring the side show, what I'd like to know is, do the peeps here get more out of Parker heads, or the solos?. I never understood where people say all the best vocab is in the heads. A lot of my fave Parker vocab is in the solos.

**nick1994** · 03-22-2015, 09:45 PM

I think that the heads are just as valuable as the solos, a lot of it is the same language.

**Broyale** · 03-22-2015, 10:08 PM

To (humbly) clarify my statements, then back away from this thread to practice,
What I meant by "note-vomit" (not literal vomit), is that when I listen to Parker's music, all I hear is notes on notes on notes with nothing for me to latch on to like, for instance, that bitchin' GB solo on Red Clay. His music always felt more like exercises to me. When I was in school, we watched a video of Greg Fishman and some lady singing a Parker head and while it was impressive from a technical sense of someone being able to nail it vocally, I was looking around like, "this sounds like gibberish" to me. Someone at work asked me if I felt that way, then why do I like Giant Steps, well, it should be obvious. Giant Steps is awesome and it makes me wanna sing it, some tunes don't. Someone mentioned that learning Parker solos are a rite of passage, and I would agree, I just see his music as technical exercises to master, nothing I would be inclined to sing or anything. I do realize that he kinda had to play like that considering what he went through just to be able to get on the bandstand and make it through a set without someone throwing a cymbal at him (allegedly).

**princeplanet** · 03-22-2015, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Broyale

...... His music always felt more like exercises to me......, "this sounds like gibberish" to me. Someone at work asked me if I felt that way, then why do I like Giant Steps, well, it should be obvious. Giant Steps is awesome and it makes me wanna sing it, some tunes don't.......

Obvious, really? Many of us feel that Giant Steps sounds more like an "exercise" than anything Parker ever played....