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Hi guys, wanted to know what contemporary tunes you guys think will become future standards. The timeframe I was thinking would be anything in the last two decades.
I have lots and lots of stuff to listen to but I think the following might become future standards :
1) Strasbourg St. Denis - Roy Hargrove
2) Nemesis - Aaron Parks
3) Zhivago - Kurt
Not saying these are the best tunes of each artist(they're all awesome tunes for sure) in my opinion but I think each artist is quite well-known for the above and that's also an important consideration.
Edit : Interesting link for further reading
http://nextbop.com/blog/themodernstandardwhatisit
Quote :
“If you think about it, The Real Book hasn’t changed since probably 1993,” says Evans. “I haven’t bought one in a long time, but…that’s twenty years. In that amount of time, we’ve had some monumental records, despite what people want to think or say. We’ve got Crazy People Music from Branford [Marsalis], we’ve got Jason Moran’s records, Robert Glasper’s records, Kenny Kirkland’s records, which came out all within that time span. Christian McBride’s first two records, during the time when the young lions — Roy Hargrove, Nicholas Payton — all of them had killing records, and you don’t see hardly any of those tunes in any of the Real/Fake books. We have to keep playing the music. Because if you stop playing it, for the next kids who come along, there’s no book. I mean, granted, the reality is if we’re going to deal with it musically, all the old heads would say they should be learning it by ear anyway, but I’m talking about the business of it. We’re not represented. Two decades of music is not represented in that book.”Last edited by pushkar000; 01-13-2015 at 07:31 PM.
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01-13-2015 06:55 PM
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Well, I don't think many people want Branford's tunes in the Real Book. No knock on Branford. Speaking of which, I like his version of this older tune:
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I hear a lot in jazz educational material (Levine) that to be a respected pro you need to know an enormous list of tunes. (this is my sources, I'm only a hobbyist) This is a gigantic task! You will want to learn pretty much all that is in the real book before any Jason Moran tune. And when you are there, you probably don't need any book to help you learn a tune. Actually you probably want to compose your own.
Think about it. How hard is it to make a living in jazz. What will put bread on the table, Stella by starlight or Zhivago?
Its just that the "priority" is already overwhelming.
If one day I know 30 tunes from old standards very well by memory ill be more than happy. And trust me Ill focus on stuff I may be asked to play.
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Tunes become Jazz Standards because they have passed the test of time, they have become common repertoire of the Jazz community at large. Just like the Tin Pan Alley tunes of the Great American Songbook that are part of the term Standards. Thousands of tune were written then, but only some have stood the test of time.
There is a some good material written in the last twenty, thirty years, and when it become common to hear those tunes at Jazz clubs other that the author's band, then you might have a potential standard.
Funny that article mentions the Real Books last update. Just the other day I came across my first copy of the Real Book I got about 1975 around when it first surfaced. The tunes have changed quite a bit, but the biggest change was when changed from a real fakebook into a commercially produced songbook. According to Real Book lore it originated in the basement of a very famous East coast Jazz school. The people who did the tune selection and transcribing also favored putting their own tunes in the original Real Book and many of those are the tunes that have disappeared over the years. Then online (pre-WWW) if you want fun you get log onto bulletin boards and get involved in the nasty arguments over the "screwed up" changes in the Real Book.
So with live music and jams drying I think it going to a lot harder for a tune to reach being called a Standard.
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Academia will determine the new standards, probably the professor's published tunes.
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Hi, I get what you mean when you wrote the above. I personally don't even own a real book and never have. I learn it all by ear. Can't waste money and lug that crap around, half of it is written wrong anyway. It's self-defeating too = if I need to see the book, it means I don't know the tune and shouldn't be playing it anyway.
Originally Posted by Takemitsu
But I'm not talking about the book specifically but in terms of the representation of contemporary tunes, regardless of whether it's in the book or not. That's what I think the quote I gave actually means as well - not just that "its not in the book", but that the recent generations of music is just not part of the standard repertoire and not played by the other musicians. He's talking about the book, but he means in general, not just the book. At least that's what I understood.
Some tunes don't need time or books to become standards. For example, when Sonny wrote Oleo, it did not take 30+ years to become a standard - no, everybody just picked it up and started playing it right away. Within five years of writing, Miles had already recorded it 3 times. There was no real book at that time, it just became a popular tune to play.
I'm talking about those kind of tunes. I think Strasbourg St. Denis is probably one of the only few that actually fits the bill - you can call it, and chances are everybody will know it.
Additionally, I was asking for tunes that are not standards now, but as docbop said, will eventually withstand the test of time and become part of the repertoire. This is where I think Zhivago and Nemesis might fit in.
Edit : I am quite a jazz neophyte and I have lots and lots of listening to do so in a way that's what kind of inspired this thread. Just wanted to know some of the hot tunes of the day, then that led to "future standards".Last edited by pushkar000; 01-14-2015 at 08:19 AM.
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The only thing I would point out is Oleo and other tunes that got accepted fast were new heads over rhythm changes as Oleo is or other popular changes new head were made for. So for various reasons they wrote their own heads. I'm a big Roy Hargrove fan and love Strasbourg St. Denis, but I've never heard anyone but Roy play it. Originally Posted by pushkar000
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I had not thought of that. Makes sense. Thanks for pointing it out. Originally Posted by docbop
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the term "standard" may have to be re-defined..what was a standard in not what some call it today..
what determines a standard..its form-32bars-AABA--or who wrote it..Cole Porter..Paul McCartney..or how many times it has been recorded by other people..is "Yesterday" a standard.its "old"..many jazz players have recorded it...one of my faves is by Billy Joel-"New York State of Mind" it "feels" like a standard.. jazz players have recorded it..
More contemporary songs..sure why not..something by Jack White perhaps..JayZ..or..someone we have never heard of..
my take: the standard was the popular song of the day-(lets say late 1930's-1950's)..and before technology had any major impact on much of the population (way before TV/computers) radio was the common bond of the day for music..and big bands were the Rock/PoP group of the day..so the songs that big bands would play were what would be recognizable to people..band members..would get together at small clubs and use the standard as a "head" and then improvise over it..and some of them became legends in jazz..they HAD to know standards if they wanted to be in bands making a living..
much different today..a song comes out on Friday and 50 groups can play it by Monday..
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I mean, a lot of guys are already playing tunes of their peers. So in a sense, these tunes are becoming, not what I would call standards, but well known music that's part of a repertoire.
As far as tunes or musicians who I think will have some music there...
I can think of Dave Holland, stuff off the quintet record mainly. Tunes like The Balance.
Kurt will probably have some tunes.
I know people that already play some Aaron Parks music.
Paul Motian has a lot of music being played.
I think the issue is, though, a lot of the music is becoming harder and harder, you know? 50+ years ago, you could set up gigs for days and never have to rehearse, just show up with some sheets, and that's if none of the guys knew the music. But even then, guys were still writing short form based tunes. Even guys like Wayne Shorter.
The difference now is that there's a lack of gigs, but people still want to use that time efficiently. The lack of gigs means more time for rehearsals, so if you have time to rehearse, you can write more difficult music to tweak. So nowadays it's not like "learn 1000's of contemporary tunes", but it's more like "learn the tunes of the guys you want to play with". The guys I listed, being more popular, will probably have more followers. But for example, I'm really into Steve Coleman, and have made it a thing to learn some of his music, and not only his, but of his band members too. But someone who is into Kurt Rosenwinkel probably won't get into listening and wanting to play the music of Steve.
Something coming out that I see more and more of, too, is songbooks of certain artists. I know there's a Kurt Rosenwinkel one, and I have the one with Ben Monder's music.
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I wonder how well a book called "Contemporary Standards" or something to the like with 100 or more modern tunes of today's artist sell. You know, basic lead sheets like the original Standards book. How much more recognition would these newer songs get? Would they gain popularity in terms of hearing them played at local jam sessions? I honestly think it would be a cool idea.
Having guys from 80's on up really. Mehldau, Moran, Parks, Holland, Mcbride, Metheny, Scofield, Frisell, Bension, Rosenwinkel, Kriesberg, Brecker, Potter, Turner, Vinsion, Hargrove, Akinmusire and more.
I would buy it.
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Strasbourg St. Denis is a catchy tune. I saw a student ensemble play it a few years ago and it got them applause. Another band I would put on RH's level is Christian McBride's Inside Straight. "Kind of Brown" is an instant classic album with lots of catchy compositions that I'd love to see become standard.
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Some of the Chuck Sher fakebooks have gone in this direction in proportion to their release date.
Song list linked below:
The Worlds Greatest Fake Book: Index | Sher Music Co.
The All-Jazz Real Book | Sher Music Co.
I suspect the European Real Book is similar.
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Yeah Stasbourg St. Denis, I play that with my band sometimes, people like it. Might become a standard.
I think some pop tunes can turn into standards too. My guess would be Stevie Wonder's "Isn't She Lovely". It has already been recorded by Sylvain Luc and Birelli Lagrene as a duo and also by Jimmy Ponder as a solo-arrangement.
Another one I can think of is Bill Wither's "Lovely Day".
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Thanks for the responses guys - I've got a few new things to listen to(more than a few if I go through those sher books).
Seems like Strasbourg St. Denis is one of the most popular out of the newer tunes.
I think I'm going to start calling the newer tunes in my jams.
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Plenty of Mulgrew Miller's stuff SHOULD be, partcularly some of the stuff with Wingspan like "Go East Young Man"
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Very Interesting topic guys !!! id love to weigh in , from a totally uneducated point of view. As i really know nothing of Jazz and its Traditions. The only reason, i ever saw the real book ! is because ! i was told if you want to learn jazz. here's all the tune's There in this secret book !!! it really was a mystery for a long time.!! And that this book only really relates to learning and playing jazz. am i wrong? or ya just go buy a song book of hit's (top 100's) and learn to strum and play. some of your fav songs.
The only reason i say that is ! maybe the real book ! in today's new age, need's to include ,more of the song's they left out ! and add the new cats. you all know who they are !!! i dont . and all about preserving jazz's history,and new paths forward. this is assuming that the real books are about jazz ! if not ! every great tune is fair game. But as a person new, to the REAL world of jazz ! the one you live in . i cant imagine you all handing me Material girl. and using that to learn, to get my SCO on ... lol sorry if im making a stupid point ! i'm here to be educated !!! but then again maybe im wrong . Madonna song's have 100,000 standing on there feet screaming ! and singing along. I might be under the false impression, that the real books and such. Point to a time in music, when are ears were use to hearing more complex music forms eg, the comp's and stacked chords and melody's. And once was also told !! since rock and roll ! we've got to use to hearing simpler music. root,3,5 and all but lost the ability to enjoy these more complex sounds root 3,5,7,9,,11,13
Now here's the secret book !!! it will open up your ears and show you the path... young jedi !!
p.s thats how it was shown to me ! and how i even saw the book !! all truth ! 6 years later here i am... and its still the same tune's from that book. your all playing. It must be the Grail !!
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Man, you like exclamation marks and full stops, don't you?
So what contemporary tunes that aren't in the Realbook do deserve a place in it according to you?
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03-13-2015, 09:29 AM #19destinytot Guest
Is Love Dance in the Real Book? If not, I think it should be. It's another gem from Ivan Lins:
Last edited by destinytot; 03-13-2015 at 09:40 AM.
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Listening to a lot of Gretchen Parlato and Gregory Porter recently, and think there's stuff they've written and chosen to cover that could both be new "standard" type material.
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"Isn't she lovely" is very often played here in France in the gypsy style, already a standard
I heard a friend's band playing "Pogo" from Jérôme Sabbagh, that tune really sounds like a standard to me.
My 2 cents : a standard become a standard when musicians play it, so I guess indeed if a certain tune is chosen by a music school, a lot of students will learn it, play it, probably bring it on jams nad it might become a standard if it stands the test of time. Not sure if too complicated tune with complex arrangements could become a standard though...
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True, standards become standards when musicians play it. The thing is that in contrast to 60 or so years ago, you had people playing more similar things that what people are playing now.
I mean, of course, in that time music sounded a lot different to people. Like, from today's perspective we look at Mozart and Beethoven as being similar, but in that time, people probably thought those two were at two different ends. Same with music in the 30s & 40s. Tunes became standards at that point because musicians were playing them, and although at that point, things might seem distant from each other, they were all still swinging and playing form based tunes. The two furthest things I can think of is the Harlem music scene (the bebop guys) Vs the Tristano school (white musicians). You might listen to both things for a second and say "oh, it sounds similar", but when analyzed, their music has a lot of fundamental differences. However, they were all still playing the same repertoire. They would write contrafacts over the same tunes (What is this thing - Hot House/Subconsciouslee or Cherokee - Koko/Marshmallow).
To get people to play the same repertoire nowadays would be almost an impossible accomplishment. You have guys playing smooth, free, straight ahead, modern, avantgarde, groove, etc. All these styles have different thinkers and different repertoires. Like, smooth musicians will play Grover Washington stuff, but you'll never hear a free guy playing that. A straight ahead guy will probably play something as far as Wayne Shorter, but you probably won't hear him playing something by Robert Glasper. You get the point.
The great thing is when guys play multiple styles. Bill Frisell is awesome at this, and so was Paul Motian, but these kinds of guys are rare. I think in todays music, guys get comfortable in a certain spot, and at one point, just start releasing the same stuff over and over.
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Some of the 70s pop tunes could make good jazz vehicles - Dave Stryker has done a great job with some of them. You can hear some samples here:
Dave Stryker | Eight Track | CD Baby Music Store
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Thing is that jazz musicians have become very conservative. Most of us play a repertoire that's older than we are! And we don't consider current pop tunes worthy of our attention. Unless we are playing new tunes that we've composed, we don't generally play anything written in the past 30 years.
Joshua Redman included "Tears In Heaven" on his CD "The Wish" and that was about the most recent pop song I've heard recorded by a jazz band. Diana Krall has added non-GASB tunes and jazz musicians seem to carp about this (Jim Croce's "Operator," for example).
If we don't update and refresh the repertoire we will continue to lose audience- and we don't have much to lose. But college age kids can "get" jazz. We do a monthly gig at a college bar and play straight ahead jazz for 'em and they get it. We have 21 year old kids (according to their IDs at least) listening, dancing, etc. And then we have the old farts section of the audience made up of people the ages of the band members (45-70). We shouldn't underestimate the younger generation- jazz is a part of their apperceptive mass that doesn't get exercised much but it can be. We have to have some ways to hook them in and familiar-to-them tunes are one way to do that.
A local New Orleans style band has added an arrangement of Lady Gaga's "Bad Romance" to their set list and they make it swing (the original is not my cup of tea, I have to say). It's a challenge to make many/most modern pop tunes fit in a jazz setting and in many cases it probably can't be done successfully due to melodic limitations of the source material. But, heck, there's an album of Joe Pass playing Rolling Stones tunes and those arrangements are remarkably good (and predating the 30 year cutoff I mentioned earlier).
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