Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 50 of 53
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    I have some trouble with scales playing over Someday My Prince Will Come.

    Can you please tell me what to use.

    I use the B major scale, D Mixolydian over V, the fifth mode from the G melodic minor scale, C melodic minor, and some chromaticism, but I got problems with phrasing.

    If anyone has suggestions please let me know.

    Thanks!

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Some choices are:

    Bbma7 - Bb major scale plus modes
    D7#5 - Eb melodic minor/ D whole tone / D symetrical (1/2 whole)
    Ebma 7 - Eb Lydian (Bb maj)
    G7#5 - Ab melodic minor / C melodic minor
    Cmi7 - C dorian (Bb maj)/ C blues
    C7 - C mixolydian
    F7 - Mixolydian (Bb maj)
    D mi7 D phrygian (Bb maj)
    C# dim (C# symmetrical whole-half)
    Cmi7 C dorian etc.

    Second ending

    Fmi7 - F melodic minor
    Bb7 - Same
    Ebma7 - Eb ma or Eb lydian
    E dim - E symmetrical w-1/2
    The rest in Bb major and its modes.

    You can play most of this tune in Bb major though, but change scales on the D7, G7 ,C7,Bb7

    On the diminshed chords I like to think of them as the 3rd of a 7b9 chord. If you think like that then it opens those chords up to other types of scales and harmonic possibilities.

    One other option on the diminshed is to play a diminshed scale. I don't know the name of this scale but it's a six note scale tha outlines the most common diminshed chord with some extensions. The notes in c would be

    c,d,Eb,Gb,Ab, A natural then repeat.

    There are plenty of other options. I'm sure lot's of ideas will follow from some of the other forum contributers.

    It's a nice tune. Have fun

  4. #3
    that seems so complicated, i cant even read through that. why not just concentrate on arpeggios for the changes?

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Yes and no.

    The above is more for analysis, possibities. Just some info .

    Honestly I don't think of scales or arpeggios and I don't think it's helpful to alway think in just terms of scales , especialy linear movement only, to improvise.

    I think of types of sounds. Do I hear alternate 5's or 9's? Lydian? Augmented? Diminished? and then I think about what type of movement do I want, Scale wise, Arpeggios, or Intervals


    to elaborate on my original answer from an analytical view , if you look at the above scale choices most are some sort of Bb maj or one of its modes. If I were to think in modes I might start on D phrygian (Bb maj) into D super locrian (Eb melodic minor) back to D phrygian. I could stay in D phrygian got the G7#5 ans here wouls aldo be a good place to through in a G7 arpeggio (do a run of say D, Eb, F from the mode and then G,B,D,F,Ab as an arpeggio)

    But really, I try not to think too much when I improvise. That's one of the things that trips everybody up. Thinking too hard about which scale and then just blowing through the scale.

    I find that all these scales, modes , apreggios and interval excercises are really just a means to an end. We do them to train our mind and ear to invent melodies and then recognize where to put our fingers when we hear those melodies.

    Of course I'll be the first to admit to grabing a D dorian mode and running like the wind on Coltrane's "Impressions" to start it off. But the truth is I pick my staring note and go from there. If I 'm lucky, something good comes out. If not, well, then at least I know all my scales , modes and arpeggios to fall back on.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Holmes Monaco View Post
    that seems so complicated, i cant even read through that. why not just concentrate on arpeggios for the changes?
    that's the way i approach "someday"...i'm usually playing it as a medium ballad.

    something worth checking out would be how bob brookmeyer takes this tune on a great recording from about 30 years ago, "bob brookmeyer's small band" it's a live cut, and they take "someday" medium up....they're blowing! jack wilkins on guitar, to boot. great stuff.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    I'm curious, why just arpeggios?

    Here's another question , How would Ella solo over this? She would sing the melodies that popped into her head. I'm sure she didn't think what scale or arpeggio to use, she just sang what she heard.

    Same with Benson when he plays and sings the line. I would like to think that he thought about the line he was singing and then played that on guitar.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    just an easier way of visualization, for me. i can "see" the chord, but i also know how the chord is built...so if i want to raise the fifth, i can. if i want the lydian sound, i can think maj7 and raise the 11th...it just cuts down on a lot of memorization for me, which is something i've never enjoyed.

    ideally, i'm thinking melodically as well. the chord, or the arpeggio, however you want to look at it, is home base to me.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Using the melody as a basis for a first chorus or two is also a great idea. Listen to Johnny Smith for great examples of this in every solo he played. It's a great way to stretch a line, the melody, you already know into a few choruses of blowing by just adding slight alterations.

    MW

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    this was very helpful,it looks a little complicated but its not. I also go with the melody and use tone or two from the complicated scales,but if you want really to know the these tone or two you need to know entire scale.Again thanks a lot,really helpful greetings from Kerim,Bosnia

  11. #10
    I'm having a hard time with that tune right now. It's maybe beyond my skill, but I've completely fallen in love with its melody. The thing is, the melody is too empty to throw in the middle of a solo. I usually expect something busier. I tend to use the arps along with some extensions, as it is really easy to get lost when using scales in 3/4 time. Do you have any ideas for using the melody without sounding empty?

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    One thing you can do if play arpeggios from low to high that finish on the melody note. This way you are using the arpeggios that you like to improv with and are mixing in the melody. You can do this with scales as well. Johnny Smith was a master at this so if you have any of his stuff take a listen to hear how he does it.

    MW

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    I've arrived late to this blog as I'm currently struggling with, "Someday..." I found a superb version by Joe Pass, in A flat maj7 which transitions to A major, then down to G major. As expected,Joe runs the gamut of chords and adds some stellar single-note runs, too. It's well worth checking out ! Thanks for all the input.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    There is a great version by Jim Hall where he redid the melody. He calls it "Waltz New". It's on Artist House records , but out of print.

    I remember the album came with a booklet that had the head and solos transcribed for both the bass and guitar. Pretty advanced idea for the "70's

    I think I still have that booklet.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    A cool reharmonization for those interested: replace the (C#o7) with (Em11 A7)

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    try some voice leading ideas...Bb Bb+ Bb6 Bo Cm CmM7 C#o Co etc...
    scales aint the way go...never are.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Simplify the harmony and think tonal centers...

    i.e: Bb/D7aug/Eb/...= Bb/Bb7/Eb...Is like Bb leading to Eb

    G7/Cm/G7/Cm...Is all Cm tonality

    Dm/Gm/Cm/F7 is all I-VI-II-V in Bb.

    The use of the augmented chord is a result of the melody and should not be confused with the basic harmonic structure.
    Check out some other tunes with similar harmonic/melodic structure (Everybody Loves Somebody Sometime, The B section of La Fiesta)
    And listen to how the lines move Hope this helps.

    Just my opinion

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Hi everyone, first time here for me. I've come across a LOT of useful information in this forum.
    I'd agree that «You can play most of this tune in Bb major though, but change scales on the D7, G7 ,C7,Bb7», as JohnW400 put it.

    On the other hand, what I do find most useful, when practicing, is to play the head 'in a loop', until slight changes in the choice of notes and rhythm start to come in, really slow. It comes from that Lee Konitz 10 steps appoach, which I find realistic and useful. Many times, at least for me, a scale / arpeggio approach seems somewhat unpractical, if you don't know the tune well enough. Of course this is not to imply we shouldn't learn those as best as we possibly can.
    Just some thoughts.
    Greetings from Lisbon,
    André Rodrigues

  19. #18
    Well, you can utilize modes that borrow from the usual scale realms, but that is a very long route and it leans towards tending to address each chord in isolation. You can still study that way, if you desire, but you ask about the tune as a tune first, and the individual changes, second. Although, I understand your strategy in trying to play over the changes. The problem with only driving the mode route is that they don't address the 'connecting tissue.' The tune (progression which involves melody and bass line, besides the changes), is one unit and my advice is to think unit first, as opposed to thinking individual changes (or at least divide your study time between the two concepts; two of several). Having stated this, it's not to say that the tune does not have a "schematic." This involves a bass line and the bass line is covering a cycle that is ultimately drawn as resultants out of the Overtone Series.

    1: Study this bass line (chord roots) and observe how each interval is related to the preceding chord and the subsequent chord.

    2: Write down the cyclic formula and try to think why Mr. Churchill (Not Winston) put together his progression to meet his melody.

    3: Look closer at the 2nd change. D+7. It is D7 type chord, but Bb is in the melody. Sure, you can be told to ignore the "augmentedness" of the original change and just think "D7 land", but the next change is critical concerning improvisation. D aug triad is also and inverted Bbaug triad. look at the second change as the V7alt (1st inv) of Ebmaj7. The bassline goes Bb to D. This is major third, which is quite harmonious, but the composer is now able to kill two birds with one stone with the aug. chord quality as V7/I of Eb, which in turn is the IV chord from Bb. What to play for you first way of thinking (at home as "practice")? Bbmajor scale in bar one adjusted to Bb mixolydian (add the #5 to your thinking and hearing) and then the mini-cadence into Ebmaj7 (Eb major scale).

    4: Mr. Churchill uses the exact same clever device for the IV chord. Eb bass going to G bass (another very harmonious major 3rd, yes?) And agin he utilizes an augmented dominant , G+7. Only this time G7 fits nicely as is: V7/ii (V7 cadence to i min7), so now you can think of this Gaug as an extension of Ebmaj7 and being G7 simultaneously. Look at G aug and look at Ebmaj7#5. Pretty damn close in sound? Now you can reduce the progression (so far) to Ebmaj7/ Bb+7/ Ebmaj7/ Ebmaj7#5/ C-7/

    5: G+7 in bar 6 can now free itself up for G mixolydian (with a twist), becase it is simply returning to it's "mama", C-7. C-7 is now a ii-7 going to F7, but now you have D-7. D-7 is the 'medient minor' sub chord for Bbmaj7. Again, think cadence. Think Bbmaj7 instead of D-7 (for now, at least).

    6: C#dim7 can be thought of what it is "functioning as a secondary dominant" (passing chord going to ii-7). Since it is a flat key, Key of Bb, you can look at it as Dbdim7. A common function as biiidim resolving into ii-7 (C-7). This can also be looked upon as a change of tonic chord quality: Bbmaj7 altered to Bbdim7.

    This is all the time that I have at the moment to donate, but if you can follow what I have written, the rest of the tune follows suit.

    Modes are very helpful and consequently useful, but the cycle of the progression should be first and foremost. Each tune has a "schmatic", so it's only normal that the blueprint should be addressed first, because it clearly reveals the foundation where the modes may be simply housed in. The thing to keep in mind, is that people live inside the house. And each person ("the connecting tissue") has a personality to not be ignored.

    Sure, this looks like more words that a tally of the usual modal suspects, but again it's a matter of communication and this takes words and some enthusiastic reading by default. Reduce down to the cycle and pay attention to the bassline interval movement, while all the time keeping your eyes on the ball.

    TD

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    in the second measure in the key of g the chart calls for b+ and that doesn't sound right. the melody note is g....any suggestions

    in the third measure the melody note is f# and the chord is c......???? I would like to play a melody note strum strum simple arrangement of this song.....thanks....dan

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Those are indeed the correct changes, and the placement of those melody notes against those chords is part of what makes the tune appealing. Are you trying to keep the melody on the bass strings and playing your chord accents on the higher strings? That's going to involve some hard fingerings.

    For the g melody with B chord over it, try a standard B7 fingering but leave the 3rd string open.

    For the f# with a C chord, that isn't as odd. It's a CMaj#4. Assuming you want to keep the melody on the bass strings, try:

    EADGBE
    x34230

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Try a 7#9#5 for that G melody note over the B bass... I do SDMPWC in G for solo guitar, I voice it like this-- x 2 1 2 3 3, then grab the D# as a single note after that...

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    I tried the b7 with the g open and it didn't sound so good.....I start the song on the open 4th string.....playing a g chord.....it sounds better to me to pinch low g and 3rd string g and strum the second beat for the second measure

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Oh, you're taking the melody in the lower octave...that might be tough to get the color of the chords and have the melody "ring out"

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    I'm not sure what you mean.....remember, I'm playing the song in the first pos. thanks....Dan

  26. #25
    B+? That's B augmented. #5 is F## or...G... So, it's a chord tone and actually, the most IMPORTANT chord tone . Honestly, that's the "good note". That's the key component of that chromatic lead line. The thing about playing chord melody on guitar Is that you can really get locked into vertical thinking and hearing in a way that's not helpful with music executing harmony and melody simultaneously.

    Honestly, one of the most helpful things in breaking some of that is to simply arpeggiate with your right hand more. Try practicing articulating every voicing by picking the melody first, followed by the chord, just as an exercise. Strange things about harmonic rhythm and the ears. With the slightest separation, timewise, almost anything works regardless of how dissonant. You easily hear it/see you at piano music where melody and harmony are easily more separable, But it's really more about articulating melody is a separate voice, then other mechanical considerations of range etc.

  27. #26

    User Info Menu

    Well, yes, I guess I didn't realize you intended to stay completely in first position. Pretty wide range in the melody, puts some notes quite low if that's your intention, and you'll still need to get up to the 5th fret A at the end...

  28. #27
    Always forget about that with Dan.

    Dan, you can very easily get away with a lot of "melody on the bottom" with a small about of the rhythmic separation I'm talking about, as well. Just half beat or a grace note.

  29. #28

    User Info Menu

    When I played an arpeggio over the g b d# and g it sounded better.......thanks

  30. #29
    Sure. It's a waltz anyway. That kind of rhythmic separation is kind of necessary to articulate 3/4 in a jazz style. Melody on 1, chord on 2-3. Not as a formula necessarily, but that kind of vibe. If you look at the melody, much of it is "borrowing" chord tones from the previous chords. There tensions, sure, but most jazz (and all other music really) is about blurring those bar lines. They're just organizational frameworks for our benefit. They aren't boxes to rigidly "hold the chords in".

    A chart would help...

  31. #30

    User Info Menu

    ok.....i'm also having trouble with the 27th measure. The melody note is I believe a g# ( I transposed from f to g) My chart says play a c chord......???? Another chart says play c+.......dan

  32. #31

    User Info Menu

    So Lawson, I play the melody note which is f# on the 4th string and strum which notes?....Dan
    Last edited by jazzdan; 02-01-2017 at 02:58 PM.

  33. #32

    User Info Menu

    Strum or arpeggiate as much of the chord as you can get to. Maybe the b on the 3rd string with the d on the 2nd and the open e?

    Also: grab the f# on the 4th string then just bar 3-2 on the 4th fret: B augmented, albeit reduced. For one beat it'll get the harmonic movement for you. You can grab the d# on the 6th fret of the 5th string from there. Outside your 1st position but easily reached from the voicing I've suggested.

  34. #33

    User Info Menu

    Grant Green ut 3 tunes in 4 well. Always liked his "moon river" too.

  35. #34

    User Info Menu

    Ok Lawson, that sounds fine......what chord name shall I use or not use....thanks....Dan

  36. #35

    User Info Menu

    I'd still just call it a B7#5. You are implying the standard harmony but in the actual solo you don't always have to play the whole chord. The longer you dwell on it, the more you need to include. But that measure leaves you just one beat for the chord fragment between the two melody notes.

  37. #36

    User Info Menu

    Thanks Lawson.....above the word find in the 27th measure is a g# if I have transposed correctly. In the key of F the chart says Bb.....transposed that would be C but that doesn't work with the g#. I've tried doing an arpeggio over c..e...g# and that sounds clunky but it's only for a beat......????? I used Matt's advice on the B+ here......Dan

  38. #37

    User Info Menu

    Actually what you are hearing as "doesn't work" is what the composer wanted. It's a IV chord (subdominant) with its own sharpened 5th and everybody learning this song tends to hang up on it. I play it in Bb and so I usually voice it as Eb on 5th string, G on 4th, B natural on 3rd. It's an easy grip, but you have to train your ear to hear it as "right." You can play by using C on 5th, E on 4th, G# on 3rd, even grab the C again on 2nd.

    You might find a short cut, but this is an important "turn" in the tune and I think it's one of the spots a player needs to "nail" to get the song right.

  39. #38

    User Info Menu

    For what it's worth, just having some fun with Guitar Pro. "normal" octave, I think of these as a good combo of stock (nothing fancy) but still smooth.

    for some reason guitar pro automatically extends barre symbols to all strings sometimes, so some of the chord grids indicate barre-ing that goes a 'string too far', but the notation is right.

    Someday My Prince Will Come-someday-my-prince-will-come-jpg

  40. #39

    User Info Menu

    Oops I see now I've given you a voicing that is in the wrong octave. I imagine you're putting the G# on the 6th string which will sound muddy. You could play the G# and strum your C chord by barring strings 4-3-2 at the 5th fret.

  41. #40

    User Info Menu

    Ok....I'll keep rolling it like Matt says until I get it.....so that chord is a C+?......thanks....Dan

  42. #41

    User Info Menu

    The g# is on the third string so I can roll the c...e and g#.....Dan

  43. #42

    User Info Menu

    Sorry for reviving the thread, it just seemed the appropriate place to share the chord melody I made of this song.

    It's very straight forward, nothing fancy:




    Here are the charts I made:

    Someday My Prince Will Come-some-day-my-prince-will-come-chord-melody-1-jpg

    Someday My Prince Will Come-some-day-my-prince-will-come-chord-melody-2-jpg

  44. #43

    User Info Menu

    Here's my take of "Someday My Prince Will Come", thanks for checking it out!


  45. #44

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by delo054 View Post
    Here's my take of "Someday My Prince Will Come", thanks for checking it out!

    Nice! I like the bass lines especially!

  46. #45

    User Info Menu

    I did one recently; semi-improvised chord melody with improvised solo:



  47. #46

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay View Post
    I did one recently; semi-improvised chord melody with improvised solo:


    Very nice! Some really beautiful lines in there!

  48. #47

    User Info Menu

    Ted Greene demonstrates about 20 different ways of playing it in this video:


  49. #48

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Milton View Post
    Ted Greene demonstrates about 20 different ways of playing it in this video:

    Omg, I forget sometimes what a genius that man was!!

  50. #49

    User Info Menu


  51. #50

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricmolina
    Very nice!