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He's playing all the notes that jazzers don't play.
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05-30-2026 09:28 AM
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I love all these historic Blues recordings. the intro to this podcast has an interesting take on our concept of “the blues” being a product created by white record executives and not representative of what the musicians actually played. Time has filtered away the real blues and we are left with the watered down stuff they thought would have mass appeal.
Episode 166: “Crossroads” by Cream – A History of Rock Music in 500 Songs
That ought to get some conversation going.
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I'm 20mins in, and man, what a great episode this is. So much nuance and details I've never heard/read, like the bit about songsters or the part about people calling some of the blues adulterated. Quite surprising!
I'm sure that living in the roaring 20s could've been difficult for any number of reasons obvious and unobvious, and I wouldn't want to go back there, but I can't imagine what it must have been like being surrounded by these kinds of music... All that blues, ragtime, gospel, etc. That'd leave mark on anyone's soul or how they'd play music in the 30s and 40s.
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Disagree 100%, and on multiple levels.
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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I ran out of steam partway through the blow-by-blow prehistory of Cream, but the earlier part about early "blues" recording matches much of what I've read, particularly Elijah Wald's take on the nature of the blues as one part of African-American popular music. I'm old enough to have lived through a significant stretch of the folk-blues revival--I didn't have the Harry Smith Anthology (though I do now have the CD reissue), but I did buy the LPs of the artists rediscovered and resurrected in its wake starting in the 1960s, as well the records of the youngsters inspired by them.
And I recall the various purist tensions over what constitutes the "real" blues, and I even kinda took sides myself, preferring Lightnin' Hopkins' acoustic work over the amplified performances. But I did understand that "the blues" was not monolithic and that there were interesting historical-cultural-developmental strains, so that Howlin' Wolf's work with an amplified band was rooted in earlier solo performance. (A moment that sticks in my memory is of the London Sessions track where Wolf coaches Clapton on the timing of the "Little Red Rooster" lick.)
But while white record-company people produced and marketed the records, their customers and the artists were black, so the filtering was not all that simple*. And one of the reasons that the songsters were rediscovered by middle-class urban white guys was that songsters--and street evangelists and juke-joint entertainers--were part of the mix. Romantic notions of itinerant, downtrodden artistic heroes certainly was one component of the folk revival--Woody Guthrie, Cisco Huston, Ramblin' Jack Elliot, and every guy who ever wrote a wandering-boy song. (I can't think of a wandering-gal example.) That romantic-artist-hero model got fitted onto black bluesmen, too. (The wandering blues women tended to be more organized and less on-the-street.)
There were, of course, asymmetries in the way black and white audiences absorbed each other's musics--whites were more likely to stereotype black music (see early reactions to jazz--"jungle music" and all that), while Jimmie Rodgers was quite popular with black listeners.
* Talent-hunting and sorting through solo artists can be pretty inexpensive--get a prospect into a hotel room and see what he can do, and offer a flat-fee/no-royalties deal for the sides that might sell. The approach of Ralph Peer in the Bristol sessions was closer to the modern talent-development model (cash up front plus royalties), and one wonders whether the ethnicity of the artists and the prospective audience had anything to do with that.
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Leadbelly and Robert Johnson also played other genres but weren’t allowed to record them. Leadbelly, with all his success, wasn’t even allowed to wear a suit when he went out. To keep the idiot savant share cropper illusion alive. Originally Posted by DawgBone
These recordings are great, but it’s theorized they are dumbed down performances.
For example, you ever see Buddy Guy play in person? I never knew blues could be so filthy, it was wonderful. Nothing like his recordings, even live recordings don’t come close to him at his own club at 1am.
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are there any live recordings that come close? Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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A quick look at the discography in Wolfe & Lornell's The Life and Legend of Leadbelly suggests that a pretty big swath of Lead Belly's repertory (including children's songs) got onto record, and once he got past the guy-who-sang-his-way-out-of-prison persona, he certainly seems to have presented himself as a songster, and not one who toned down his material. "Goodnight, Irene" and "Kisses Sweeter than Wine" both came to The Weavers via Lead Belly--not exactly sharecropper fare. ("Kisses" was adapted from an Irish song and "Irene" was composed in the 1880s by the black popular composer Gussie Lord Davis.) Originally Posted by AllanAllen
About dirty blues: There's a Wikipedia entry on 'em. And if that's not enough, do a search on Lucille Bogan's "Shave 'em Dry"--particularly the earlier version.
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I have been playing this for over sixty years, starting from when I first built my own metal bodied resonator guitars - including finding an old-school machine shop that could hand spin the cones for me. Originally Posted by brent.h
Even now that sound seeps into my soul.
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Right? This resonates (pun unintended) with me more than jazz, dare I say! The melodicism and expressiveness are baffling. Originally Posted by thelostboss
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But perhaps all the notes that matter here? Originally Posted by brent.h
【Blind Willie Johnson】The Complete Recordings - YouTube
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See Robert Johnson’s Hot Tamales for a non blues. I don’t hear anything “dumbed down” about any of those performances. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
If you want to read a great book with a different perspective check out “The World Don’t Owe Me Nothing” by Honey Boy Edward’s.
It is true that many street performers performed all types of genres of music, but people wanted to buy blues records so that is what got recorded.
I have seen Buddy Guy perform many times, including several times in a very small club in Piermont, New York. Yeah Buddy can make the make hair on your neck stand up.
I have been lucky enough to see B.B., Muddy, Clarence Gatemouth (greatest stage appearance ever) Albert Collins, Luther Allison, Buddy with and without Junior, Johnny Copeland
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I was fortunate enough to be part of some after hours jams with Buddy Guy and Junior Wells back in 1972, not because my playing warranted it, but because I knew local musos whose playing did; as well as knowing one of the co-sponsors of the tour.
That gave a whole new perspective for someone who had been enamoured of blues since early teens and was still "faking it" musically.
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Tell us more! Originally Posted by thelostboss
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All I can say is that, despite not being a drummer, I still got to hang out with real musicians.
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I haven't heard "Dark was the night" for 50 years. Wow! It still hits home deeply. Beautiful in every conceivable way. I first learned to play acoustic slide, as the action on my first Kay guitar was too high to fret down. I used a teaspoon for a slide. This, Muddy Waters and Johnny Winter on a "garbage can" resonator (Johnny's description), was my first great education in music. I need to get back to it.
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I'm not sure where you got all these ideas, but by and large they do not hold true. Yes, I have seen Buddy Guy live twice. He has recordings that are very filthy sounding, you just haven't heard them. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Recommendations Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Sweet Tea Originally Posted by brent.h
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thanks!
20+ years ago, i had no idea about blues or jazz... i was an alt rock kinda guy.
one of the first blues albums i got was a buddy guy compilation, and this song (from 1967) hit me in the face:
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Blind Lemon Jefferson!
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god i love tuba skinny so much
great energy all the time
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None of these come close to the real thing. They're good recordings, but nothing beats the man himself on stage ad libbing lyrics about getting crushed by fat asses and titties that swing like udders. That's what I mean by nasty and filthy, literally dirty lyrics, no innuendo, just dirty old man stuff. Not descriptions of well played blues lines. Originally Posted by brent.h
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I don't want to hear that stuff, it's too dirty for me, but I do have a friend that I sometimes invite up to play If You Like Fat Women by Cedell Davis....the lyrics go something along the lines of 2x If you like fat women, go on down to pine bluff arkansas 1x They got more fat women there than anywhere in the world I ever saw Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Sometimes fat women leave in disgust when he sings it, but he does a nice job with the vocal so I like to hear him play it.
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