The Use of Modal Interchange Chords in Jazz Standards

[Tal_175]

This thread isn’t about the theory behind borrowing i.e., modal-interchange chords. I’m interested in identifying how they’re actually used in jazz standards. That’s why I placed the thread in the Songs section. I’ll provide a list of modal-interchange chords I’d like to explore, and you’re welcome to add more.

The idea is to find tunes where each modal-interchange chord appears and then suggest what the more diatonic, “vanilla” option would have been. To expand on that: in this view, a modal-interchange chord (or a short progression built from them) is treated as a reharmonization of a simpler underlying harmony.

For example, suppose the modal-interchange chord in question is ii–7b5. A tune that uses this sound is Night and Day (bars 1–3) Dmin7b5 | G7 | Cmaj7.
A more vanilla option would have been Dmin7. The borrowed ii–7b5 sounds a darker and makes the the arrival on Cmaj7 feels a bit surprising to my ears.

Here is the list:
i-7
bIIMaj7
ii-7b5
II7
bIIIMaj7
iv-7
IV7
#iv-7b5
bVIMaj7
bVII7

[Tal_175]

I realize that in some cases the more vanilla option would not work with the melody as the melody may further reinforce the color of the chord. Even in those cases please suggest what you think would've been a more vanilla compositional option if that makes any sense. In almost all the cases the more vanilla option is obvious anyway with the exception of #iv-7b5 and maybe also IV7, and II7.

[PMB]

That particular 'modal interchange' is Cole Porter's harmonic signature. It's in Night & Day and the opening to I Love You and also turns up in What Is This Thing Called Love, Could It Be You, After You, Who? and undoubtedly a bunch of his other tunes. If you consider the ii7b5 as an inversion of iv6, it's a kind of mash up of both the minor plagal and perfect cadence.

[ragman1]

I realize that in some cases the more vanilla option would not work with the melody as the melody may further reinforce the color of the chord. Even in those cases please suggest what you think would've been a more vanilla compositional option if that makes any sense. In almost all the cases the more vanilla option is obvious anyway with the exception of #iv-7b5 and maybe also IV7, and II7.

It's an interesting idea. What worries me is the melody. In some cases the melody would simply be destroyed if the m/i chords were replaced with vanilla alternatives.

The other question is: how vanilla? Finding a chord that would suit would merely produce another out-of-key harmony only not as good as the original m/i chords.

Does that make sense? Of course, if you're saying ignore the melody altogether then almost anything diatonic to the main key will do to cover the bars in question. But that wouldn't be much fun I shouldn't think.

Take Green Dolphin Street. There's a bit in there that goes:

EbM7 - Bbm7/Eb7 - Abm7 - Db7 - GbM7 - Fm7/Bb7

That could be restored to:

EbM7 - Bbm7/Eb7 - AbM7 - F7 - BbM7 - Fm7/Bb7

Or:

EbM7 - Bbm7/Eb7 - AbM7 - Abm6 - Gm7 - Fm7/Bb7


Or am I missing the point of it?

[Tal_175]

It's an interesting idea. What worries me is the melody. In some cases the melody would simply be destroyed if the m/i chords were replaced with vanilla alternatives.

I see what you mean but my objective is not to plug the vanilla chords in place of the original harmony. My purpose is to explore how Tin Pan Alley composers used modal interchange chords to expand on the diatonic harmony while staying firmly in the key. One way to view modal interchange chords is as substitutions where the function is preserved but a different harmonic color is introduced with notes chromatic to the key. For example in the context of Green Dolphin Street, in the first four bars, i min is introduced as a "darker" tonic modal interchange chord.

Take Green Dolphin Street. There's a bit in there that goes:

EbM7 - Bbm7/Eb7 - Abm7 - Db7 - GbM7 - Fm7/Bb7

I don't think that's and example of modal interchange. It's just temporary excursion to the key of Gb is how I view it.

[joe2758]

i-7... I
bIIMaj7...V
ii-7b5.... ii or V
II7.....ii
bIIIMaj7...I(guess)
iv-7...V
IV7...V or IV
#iv-7b5...I
bVIMaj7...IV
bVII7...iii

Obviously taken to the extreme...much better answers in between. Plus you obviously know most of them really require to know what follows the chord, so I suspect that's part of the challenge

[ragman1]

I don't think that's and example of modal interchange. It's just temporary excursion to the key of Gb is how I view it.

Quite right, I got a bit carried away!

Well, there's always the ubiquitous backdoor. As far as I know that's a modal interchange but I'm wondering if it's not too easy to restate in the tonic key especially if the melody doesn't matter. It may be as simple as Fm7-Bb7 = Dm7-G7.

I think you probably need someone with a far greater knowledge of suitable tunes than me.

[Tal_175]

i-7... I
bIIMaj7...V
ii-7b5.... ii or V
II7.....ii
bIIIMaj7...I(guess)
iv-7...V
IV7...V or IV
#iv-7b5...I
bVIMaj7...IV
bVII7...iii

Obviously taken to the extreme...much better answers in between. Plus you obviously know most of them really require to know what follows the chord, so I suspect that's part of the challenge

Yes, that's true. That's why I am interested in how they occur in actual tunes. Some of them function differently in different contexts. For example #iv-7b5 can be a colorful I chord (as you also suggested) or a related ii of V7/iii.

[Tal_175]

bVII7...iii

Hmm. Not sure I've encountered this. There are plenty of tunes where bVII7 goes to I or iii, but don't remember it ever functioning like a tonic chord.

[joe2758]

Hmm. Not sure I've encountered this. There are plenty of tunes where bVII7 goes to I or iii, but don't remember it ever functioning like a tonic chord.

My thinking was pre- vi chord so closer would be III7 but I was strict with the exercise. I mean chords can be "modal interchange" and still be vanilla...-iv for example

[joe2758]

for the hell of it let me expand:

i-7....i minor deceptive cadence (lose the -7) (or as a ii to somewhere else)
bIIMaj7....V function, side slips down to I
ii-7b5...borrowing from a minor ii-V or function like -iv
II7...just a secondary dom
bIIIMaj7...dunno I guessed I because of the minor third relationship idea
iv-7...as a ii to somewhere else or as a -iv in which case iv6 or plain
IV7... #ivdim7
#iv-7b5....To me this is a chord that goes to -iv
bVIMaj7...this is like a classical "augmented 6th chord" sub dom, or if you like tritone sub
bVII7....III7

[Tal_175]

As I said in the OP, I would like to keep this discussion context of tunes rather then theoretically.

[Tal_175]

My thinking was pre- vi chord so closer would be III7 but I was strict with the exercise. I mean chords can be "modal interchange" and still be vanilla...-iv for example

I used the term vanilla to specifically mean the diatonic choices (ie without chromatic notes in the key).

[joe2758]

Jeese man, yeah. I wasn't saying "obviously you should know." Besides that's how I did the exercise...even though I made up the exercise by mistake. Sorry If I offended you

[Tal_175]

Jeese man, yeah. I wasn't saying "obviously you should know." Besides that's how I did the exercise...even though I made up the exercise by mistake. Sorry If I offended you

Hmm, What? I wasn't offended at all. It seems like we are having two different conversations.

[joe2758]

Hmm, What? I wasn't offended at all. It seems like we are having two different conversations.

what you need to understand is i'm of the temperament and generation who read social cues (sp?) that aren't there. Sorry for the confusion.

But if you're interested I thought "No one is getting this topic, I'll be the one to get it on track by copying the chords in question exactly." Then still got it wrong. I'm ridiculous.

But anyway, doesn't theory still answer the question of how they are being used in the songs? I mean my answers are from learning these same tunes as well..I just generalized them

[Mick-7]

For example, suppose the modal-interchange chord in question is ii–7b5. A tune that uses this sound is Night and Day (bars 1–3) Dmin7b5 | G7 | Cmaj7. A more vanilla option would have been Dmin7. The borrowed ii–7b5 sounds a darker and makes the the arrival on Cmaj7 feels a bit surprising to my ears.

Dm7b5 is the chord in the Real Book, not sure what Cole Porter wrote but both Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans play a major chord in the first measure, which would be Ab^7 in C major but they play it in Eb Major so it's B^7. It's a major chord in Ralph Patt's Vanilla book too. So theoretically speaking, I think it's borrowed from the parallel minor key, C minor, and it's on your list (bVI^7).

But the point is, you'll need to know what a songs composer wrote, which you often can't glean from the Real Book chord changes.

[Christian Miller]

not sure what Cole Porter wrote

Ab major 7

Though the original key is Eb, so here it's Cb major 7th - ignore the ukulele chords, they are BS.

https://www.sheetmusicsinger.com/wp-...RCE-1932-1.pdf

[Tal_175]

Dm7b5 is the chord in the Real Book, not sure what Cole Porter wrote but both Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans play a major chord in the first measure, which would be Ab^7 in C major but they play it in Eb Major so it's B^7. It's a major chord in Ralph Patt's Vanilla book too. So theoretically speaking, I think it's borrowed from the parallel minor key, C minor, and it's on your list (bVI^7).

But the point is, you'll need to know what a songs composer wrote, which you often can't can glean from the Real Book chord changes.

Good point, yes, I treat both chords as interchangeable. But despite what I wrote in OP, I actually play bVImaj more often in the context of this tune. They are both subdominant minors.

[Tal_175]

what you need to understand is i'm of the temperament and generation who read social cues (sp?) that aren't there. Sorry for the confusion.

But if you're interested I thought "No one is getting this topic, I'll be the one to get it on track by copying the chords in question exactly." Then still got it wrong. I'm ridiculous.

But anyway, doesn't theory still answer the question of how they are being used in the songs? I mean my answers are from learning these same tunes as well..I just generalized them

I did not intend this thread to be about modal interchange 101. I know the theory and I've seen these chords in tunes. I was hoping to find out about new (to me) uses of it in tunes. But perhaps that's too broad a subject and the forum is not the right platform for it.

[joe2758]

hmm well then it seems what you are looking for is uncommon usages?

[Christian Miller]

for the hell of it let me expand:

i-7....i minor deceptive cadence (lose the -7) (or as a ii to somewhere else)
bIIMaj7....V function, side slips down to I
ii-7b5...borrowing from a minor ii-V or function like -iv
II7...just a secondary dom
bIIIMaj7...dunno I guessed I because of the minor third relationship idea
iv-7...as a ii to somewhere else or as a -iv in which case iv6 or plain
IV7... #ivdim7
#iv-7b5....To me this is a chord that goes to -iv
bVIMaj7...this is like a classical "augmented 6th chord" sub dom, or if you like tritone sub
bVII7....III7

bVImaj7 isn’t the augmented sixth btw
We’d write bVI7#11


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[joe2758]

lol

[joe2758]

no youre wrong you are specifically labeling a french 6

[Christian Miller]

Obviously the main mode that composers have always borrowed from in a major key is the minor, both parallel and relative.

The traditional understanding of minor is less fixed than the modern/jazz one, so the minor key contains many chords depending on the nature of the 7th and 6th. Furthermore the augmented 6th (Ab7#11 in C) is considered a borrowed parallel minor key chord even though it is a chromatic chord, because it is a very common predominant chord in that key.

Beyond that, I'm not sure how much the Tin Pan Alley composers themselves would have conceptualised things in those terms.

So for example, it's common to tonicise V7 with a II7 chord. Does this qualify as Lydian? Maybe. It's also obviously a secondary dominant.

OTW I think these sorts of discussions are usually about what people want to play on chords of this type.