Blue In Green first chord....

[Mick-7]

and where is the note C?
In the chord Gm13 there is 11 and in the chord Bbmaj 7#11 there is 9

Well, one or two notes must be omitted to play these chords on a 6 string guitar, and if you wanted the 9th in the major 7th chord, you'd want to call it Bb^9#11. Likewise, the 11th is often omitted in a m13 chord. Are there voicings of these chords you like that include that chord tone?

[kris]

Well, one or two notes must be omitted to play these chords on a 6 string guitar, and if you wanted the 9th in the major 7th chord, you'd want to call it Bb^9#11. Likewise, the 11th is often omitted in a m13 chord. Are there voicings of these chords you like that include that chord tone?

I meant the piano, not the guitar... look at Bill Evans version.

[Mick-7]

I meant the piano, not the guitar... look at Bill Evans version.

Not sure what your point is, this is a jazz guitar forum. If you want to include the chord extensions, 9th, 11th, and/or 13th, of Gm7 or Bb^7#11, you'll have to omit other chord tones.

If you want the 11th & 13th on top, you could play:
Gm13/Bb |-x-1-3-2-1-0 | or | 3-x-3-3-1-0 |

But you'll have a problem in keys where you can't use open strings to get the notes you want.

[kris]

Not sure what your point is, this is a jazz guitar forum. If you want to include the chord extensions, 9th, 11th, and/or 13th, of Gm7 or Bb^7#11, you'll have to omit other chord tones.

If you want the 11th & 13th on top, you could play:
Gm13/Bb |-x-1-3-2-1-0 | or | 3-x-3-3-1-0 |

But you'll have a problem in keys where you can't use open strings to get the notes you want.

What I mean is that the bass player plays G and I don't have to play G at the bottom of the chord.
Why should I double what the bass plays?The point is to make it sound good.

[ragman1]

According to Wiki:

'After four breakdowns... take 5 yielded the only complete original version of "Blue in Green.'

I always used to worry about this tune. Playing it by myself, which is not chord melody, I know it's pretty hard to make a solo sound relevant. It can't be too slow because one tends to over-fill the spaces; guitar hasn't much sustain. So now I just treat it as a medium ballad and play the RB lead sheet as it comes.

[ragman1]

Incidentally, Bill Evans' version (take 3 apparently) is very like the RB lead sheet insofar as it distinctly plays the tune. The first chord is definitely a Gm of some kind but I think it only has G and D below the E note.

[mr. beaumont]

This thread inspired me to pick up my guitar this morning and play this tune. Damn, it's perfect, ain't it?

As for the first chord, it's G, it's minor, and there's an E in the melody. That's pretty much enough info to get playing.

[Christian Miller]

What I mean is that the bass player plays G and I don't have to play G at the bottom of the chord.
Why should I double what the bass plays?The point is to make it sound good.

Bill Evans was kind of the 'no roots' guy. Jazz pianists very often played the root at the bottom of their left hand voicings up to that point. And now people get told off for doing it haha. Funny how it goes.

[Mick-7]

What I mean is that the bass player plays G and I don't have to play G at the bottom of the chord.
Why should I double what the bass plays?

That's fine as long as the bass player doesn't think it's a Bbmaj7#11 and double the third of your Gm13 chord.

Bb-D-E-F-A are the defining notes of Bb^7#11; in a Gm13 chord, the note D could be omitted or replaced with C.

[Pat Clare]

The title Blue In Green does not indicate a static color which adds to the depth of the composition

[ragman1]

This thread inspired me to pick up my guitar this morning and play this tune. Damn, it's perfect, ain't it?

As for the first chord, it's G, it's minor, and there's an E in the melody. That's pretty much enough info to get playing.

Can we hear it pleese?

[Cunamara]

That said in general, New York guys in particular take the correct changes pretty seriously.

The problem is: which "correct" changes? Almost every jazz tune and standard has about multiple sets of changes that are used by different top drawer players. I suppose if you're an actual musician with talent, unlike me, you probably know most of those different sets of changes for hundreds of tunes and can adjust between them on the fly.

[Christian Miller]

The problem is: which "correct" changes? Almost every jazz tune and standard has about multiple sets of changes that are used by different top drawer players. I suppose if you're an actual musician with talent, unlike me, you probably know most of those different sets of changes for hundreds of tunes and can adjust between them on the fly.

Yes pretty much, it’s an ongoing project.

For standards it’s having a deeper knowledge of the original song sheet changes as well as the common jazz variants of the changes. Actually I find it makes more sense often - you can see where the changes come from. I’ve learned more about harmony that way than I’ve learned from any theory book. Beyond that it’s a matter of taste and expedience which changes you play.

And it’s never been easier to do the research.

For jazz compositions it’s actually a bit simpler. The correct changes are the ones the composer intended there’s the original recorded version and you can often find an original lead sheet or a decent facsimile. Recorded versions may still differ… Miles Davis often changed features of other composers tunes

It’s good for the ears


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[ragman1]

To reiterate, Bill Evans, who wrote it, plays a 4-bar intro which is the last 8 bars of the tune reduced to four. It starts on the same chord that the tune ends on, the Dm.

If you do that then the Gm fits neatly and blends in. Personally, I've found that without the intro, a la the RB version, the Gm makes a slightly weaker starting chord than the BbM7.

But this is jazz and one can play more or less what we like providing it makes musical sense and sounds okay. We all know that but for some reason insist on faithfully following so-called original versions... only to find that different versions by the same player change the harmonies.

There seem to be innumerable versions of this Gm chord - Gm7, Gm6, Gm11, Gm13, and so on. Actually, because the first note of the melody is an E, a simple Gm7 sounds perfectly good, the F and the E making a nice 13 sound. I wouldn't use a Gm11 because I don't know where the C has come from, nor would I use a Gm6 because there's no point in doubling the E note.

I don't know why we're so slavish and frightened of making a mistake. Try different things and find out what sounds good.

[mr. beaumont]

Can we hear it pleese?

I'll try to find a few minutes this week. Lovely as a solo piece....

[rpjazzguitar]

I play the first chord x x 8 10 10 12. Bb F A E. I prefer the bassist to play a Bb rather than a G.

Tbh, it doesn't make much difference to me how Bill Evans played it or how great he sounded (no argument there). It's jazz. You're supposed to make it your own, or so I like to think.

[Christian Miller]

I play the first chord x x 8 10 10 12. Bb F A E. I prefer the bassist to play a Bb rather than a G.

Tbh, it doesn't make much difference to me how Bill Evans played it or how great he sounded (no argument there). It's jazz. You're supposed to make it your own, or so I like to think.

Paul Chambers erasure lol. He was the fella playing the G. Doesn’t matter what Bill had at the bottom of his chord haha.

The only thing I’d say I think it’s good to know the song right - as the composer originally had it - and then make artistic decisions based on that and those of other musicians who came to the song later.

—- REALBOOK RANT COMMENCETH —-

A lot of the RB charts contain what are certainly mistakes, at least up to 5th Ed, so there’s a generation of players who play those songs a bit wro- sorry, differently - just because some Berklee undergrad made a mistake with a chord in 1974 or whenever*

…at least the ones who didn’t move to New York and get chewed out by the old legends who were there at the time those songs became standards.

To err is human - I had to completely rewrite a chart I’d transcribed and played on two gigs with my band the other week because it was just wrong. But once something is in print… sometimes it doesn’t enter into people’s head it might be have some inaccuracies or be flawed and that they should check with other sources. Just in life in general, for that matter, not even music.

An advantage of this musical game of telephone is that it gives Ethan Iverson something to write blogs about.

I expect they fixed this in 6th edition. Of course technically it was fixed in 5th, but no one seemed to ever ratify the corrections in the errata and that was the bit that fell off the book first if my copy is anything to go by.

Reading through the darker corners of the old illegal RB, the changes for modern tunes
(and less frequently played tunes) written by Berklee faculty etc tend to be a lot better. I think they had composer lead sheets to go off esp. for stuff like the Metheny tunes. Same with the Sher New Real Books, but you still see editorialising that I would question with respect to the urtext so to speak. I don’t quite agree with the Sher chart for footprints going on Wayne’s lead sheet for instance even though it is far, far better than the RB one, which is simply incorrect. But that’s really getting into the weeds.

Anyway, everyone gansta till you call Desifinado lol.

*
(or they transcribed Miles’s inaccurately transcribed version that was a huge selling record that everyone learned the tune from.)

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[Christian Miller]

Actually the funniest example i can think of bass players ignoring the composers intention is Metheny’s Bright Size life.

So there’s that Bbmaj7#11/A that’s in every lead sheet I’ve seen including the OG Real book, Pat Metheny Songbook and iReal. It’s definitely what Pat wanted because he’s stated so in interviews.

IIRC Jaco played Bb there (which i prefer) on the record. I remember checking several times after hearing the Beato interview with Pat and lol’ing. He’d obviously been doing in defiance of Pat because they’d been playing that material a while (I want to say years) live as a trio before the recording date.

So that’s what everybody seems to play apart from presumably whoever is playing bass in Pats band.. just cause Pat is quite well known to have a micromanaging approach. And it’s clearly a sore point with him.

Those jazzers can’t play the same thing once.

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[rpjazzguitar]

The only thing I’d say I think it’s good to know the song right - as the composer originally had it - and then make artistic decisions based on that and those of other musicians who came to the song later.

That's a common enough view.

It's also possible to learn a song from a chart and make your own decisions.

[ragman1]

It's jazz. You're supposed to make it your own, or so I like to think.

Absolutely, but it has to sound good and make sense otherwise it can become weirdness and idiosyncratic indulgence. He said wisely :-)

[Mick-7]

Actually the funniest example i can think of bass players ignoring the composers intention is Metheny’s Bright Size life.

So there’s that Bbmaj7#11/A that’s in every lead sheet I’ve seen including the OG Real book, Pat Metheny Songbook and iReal. It’s definitely what Pat wanted because he’s stated so in interviews.

The older fake books I have say Bb/A (the melody note is E), and there are many other slash chords in the lead sheets. Real Book vol. VI has Bbmaj7b5/A, which makes me think of: | x-0-0-3-5-x |

[kris]

Ragman please don"t post your takes on my thread. Please.

[ragman1]

Ragman please don"t post your takes on my thread. Please.

No prob, all gone.

[ragman1]

The only thing I’d say I think it’s good to know the song right - as the composer originally had it - and then make artistic decisions based on that and those of other musicians who came to the song later.

The example I always think of when this original version stuff comes up is Miles and the first chord of Stella. That change, of course, being universally accepted.

There's absolutely nothing to stop someone improving a composition, especially if it's decades old (I'm not saying you don't agree with that, just saying).

[Christian Miller]

That's a common enough view.

It's also possible to learn a song from a chart and make your own decisions.

Based on your use of the singular ‘a’ here it suggests you learned it from one chart.

If that’s the case - forgive the rather obvious point - but to make a decision about anything you need two or more options?

Otherwise aren’t you simply reproducing what’s on the chart and not making any sort of decision?

These days (as opposed to forty or fifty years ago) it’s very easy to check multiple recordings and lead sheets. If we care enough for a tune to learn it, I would presume this would not be a huge imposition on one’s precious practice time.

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