Do you ever think, "Wait, why am I improvising on this tune? It's already perfect."

**sgcim** · 09-23-2025, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mick-7

Damn jazz police are never around when you need 'em!

I called them on that last one I posted. Wayne would be in a lot of trouble if he were still alive...I'm talkin' Jimmy Kimmel trouble!

**AKA** · 09-24-2025, 12:38 AM

One of my favorites, Michel Petrucciani, giving it a whirl.

**Christian Miller** · 09-24-2025, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by sgcim

Here's Bill Evans improvising on RM

OMG! Here he is again!

Here's Bad Benson and McCoy Tyner doing it! Someone tell them to stop!

Here's Miles Davis and John Coltrane doing it OMG, they're even doing their own arr. of it! Make it stop, make it stop!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys9wiGNDCvA

OMG, that John Coltrane guy is using scales! Doesn't he know that that's not creative? Why can't he just play the melody?
Everything I know is wrong!!!!!!

Monk version is better ;-)

It's not really a fair comparison though. I'm sure those guys would agree.

I sort of half jest - I have to say there are days when I think Monk may be my favourite jazz musician, but that doesn't literally mean I don't like any others haha, or feel that people shouldn't blow on those smoothed out versions of those tunes, or feel their playing is anything other than amazing and all the rest of it. It's more that when I hear them doing their thing on Round Midnight I think 'ah yes, time to listen to some more Monk.'

Trane with Monk might be my favourite Trane. (Although Charlie Rouse is one of my favourite horn players now. Utterly distinctive.)

But no discussion would be complete without this Ethan Iverson rant. I tend to agree with much of what he says.

Variants on a Theme of Thelonious Monk (including guest post by Eric Lewis) | DO THE M@TH

I almost choked on my cornflakes when he accused Barry Harris and Tommy Flanagan of cocktail piano on a Monk tune. Thing is - I know what he means. Despite sharing Nica's house with Monk, I'm not sure if Barry was ever that drawn to Monk's way of playing piano and hearing music. He did say he heard Monk play like Bud Powell once ... which seemed to have impressed him. Barry was very much about Bird & Bud, of course. (But Barry clearly highly respected Monk and I remember him praising his pianism.)

Ethan's central point is that most listeners - even many professional jazz musicians - don't really understand Monk. They see his music as messing around, or deliberately subverting expectation for the sake of it. They imagine those strange chords are the product of improvised whimsy.

This is not the case - he meant everything he played and wrote and it forms a very coherent musical language. The reason it sounds odd at first is because it is so personal.

These presuppositions mean that many versions of his tunes seem to iron out those very deliberate quirks in favour of more generalised jazz common practice - sometimes wholesale changing notes and chords (Miles Davis is prime suspect #1 here). They become nice jazz tunes which is testament to the strength of their melodies and chords. But the originals have a lot more to them as compositions.

Compare the Adam Rogers version of Let's Cool One (which is a Monk blowing tune)...

...to the original.

Adam is great of course, one of my favourite guitarists, but he really is just playing the melody here.

Monk's original has that wonderful dissonant contrary motion thing going on for example. Pay attention to the way Monk phrases the melody in particular - no-one else does this. For example, they all push the last note of that ascending phrase because it's the standard jazz thing to do. Monk also comps using the melody arrangement or a simplified comping version of the same. Which harks back to the New Orleans way of doing things with Griffin spiralling over the top like Johnny Dodds on an old Hot Fives side. Actually Griffin sounds a little flummoxed by it almost haha.

Another way of squaring the circle. It's.... cool.

And the more I get into it, the more I realise that he very much approached things as a composer, even when improvising. Peter Bernstein opened my eyes to that - he's hugely influenced by Monk chordally. Pete doesn't play the exact same notes as Monk does always, but his versions are very rooted in a deep understanding of his music. They sound right to me. Here's Pete's version of Let's Cool One for example:

The phrasing is quite different, but the use of the guitar open strings and so on to create these harmonies just feels right.

**Christian Miller** · 09-24-2025, 07:53 AM

I suppose it's a different relationship to playing Stella by Starlight for instance because it comes from within jazz. The original version of Stella has many interesting arrangement details and counter melodies that no-one plays in jazz. The chords are all subbed out.

But Stella as it was presented in the Uninvited is a sort of post-romantic soundtrack thing. It's not jazz.

Whereas Monk is obviously counted as a jazz musician. So the relationship is kind of different.

Jazz has always had specifically jazz composers since the early days. Their music has often been highly worked out and specific. An obvious example is Ellington. As for that matter, Jelly Roll Morton. There's a need to attentive to the details in this music.

OTOH people who get serious about GASB standards repertoire do look to the original recordings and song sheets even if they don't play those things in their own interpretation.

**joe2758** · 09-24-2025, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

I suppose it's a different relationship to playing Stella by Starlight for instance because it comes from within jazz. The original version of Stella has many interesting arrangement details and counter melodies that no-one plays in jazz. The chords are all subbed out.

But Stella as it was presented in the Uninvited is a sort of post-romantic soundtrack thing. It's not jazz.

so good

**djg** · 09-24-2025, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

But no discussion would be complete without this Ethan Iverson rant. I tend to agree with much of what he says.

Variants on a Theme of Thelonious Monk (including guest post by Eric Lewis) | DO THE M@TH

The phrasing is quite different, but the use of the guitar open strings and so on to create these harmonies just feels right.

iverson seems somewhat confused about the monk quote regarding the bridge of well you neednt. monk says in that famous blindfold test: “He hit the inside wrong—didn’t have the right changes. It’s supposed to be major ninths, and he’s playing ninths.” [walks to the piano, demonstrates] “It starts with a D-flat Major 9… See what I mean?” surely monk doesnt mean Dbmaj9 as iverson seems to read it, but Dbadd9? i guess monk was somewhat unclear about the nomenclatura.
and while we are nitpicking, both rogers and pete play the head of let's cool one wrong

the last note is on the beat. edit: i see you mention this

**Bob_Ross** · 09-24-2025, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by sgcim

Here's Miles playing RM again, and they don't even play the melody!

Slight digression: I once came a cross a youtube clip of Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter playing "Maiden Voyage" and not only did they not play the melody, they also did not play the changes, nor the form!

And yet, it was definitely "Maiden Voyage" ...perhaps not overtly, but it was there,

==========

Second digression: When I was an undergrad I attended a master class by Billy Higgins, and apparently someone in the scheduling department had screwed up and his faculty accompanists thought the class was starting at 11:00AM instead of 10:00AM. So Billy talks for ~20 or 30 minutes, and then says something like, "Well, I guess my band is a no-show, so I'll just play something for you." Sits down at his kit, starts playing...

Half an hour later, Billy's still playing, bassist and pianist come rushing in all embarrassed, bassist unpacks his instrument, they look towards Billy sheepishly... Billy says "I'm playing 'All the Things You Are', let's go!"

...and you suddenly (thanks to the gift of hindsight) realized, OMG yes, he has been playing 'All The Things You Are' on the drums for these last 30 minutes!

**Christian Miller** · 09-24-2025, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by djg

iverson seems somewhat confused about the monk quote regarding the bridge of well you neednt. monk says in that famous blindfold test: “He hit the inside wrong—didn’t have the right changes. It’s supposed to be major ninths, and he’s playing ninths.” [walks to the piano, demonstrates] “It starts with a D-flat Major 9… See what I mean?” surely monk doesnt mean Dbmaj9 as iverson seems to read it, but Dbadd9? i guess monk was somewhat unclear about the nomenclatura.
and while we are nitpicking, both rogers and pete play the head of let's cool one wrong

the last note is on the beat. edit: i see you mention this

Yes you could say that about Pete, they are quite different in places - the harmonies are also different. But I feel Pete's interpretation has the right spirit, so I'll let him off haha.

Re Db "major 9" - yes I buy it - the chord nomenclature wasn't really set back then. Some of Monk's autograph lead sheets use quite different chord symbols IIRC, or different meanings than we would use today. So yes I don't hear sevenths in the chords on the bridge either FWIW. Or thirds for that matter on this version:

so I think the correct chord is actually add9(no3) or 5add9

**AllanAllen** · 09-24-2025, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

Yes you could say that about Pete, they are quite different in places - the harmonies are also different. But I feel Pete's interpretation has the right spirit, so I'll let him off haha.

Re Db "major 9" - yes I buy it - the chord nomenclature wasn't really set back then. Some of Monk's autograph lead sheets use quite different chord symbols IIRC, or different meanings than we would use today. So yes I don't hear sevenths in the chords on the bridge either FWIW. Or thirds for that matter on this version:

so I think the correct chord is actually add9(no3) or 5add9

Db Ab Eb? No C?