Stella by Starlight 2025 w/Video

[Question]

Although I don't believe that Ed Bickert ever recorded Stella, he was my inspiration on this one.

Ed Bickert had a great and unique way when playing trio of accompanying himself with not only chord stabs, but also using counterpoint and chords within his melodic content.

Sort of harmonizing just sections of am improvised line and not block-chording the whole thing.


Anyway, here it is with help from Mr. Sunny Bass. (and Peter Erskine)

[James W]

If you find it difficult, this definitely doesn't come across in your playing here. I enjoyed your version.

I sort of know what you mean about the changes, but E flat, B flat, D minor and F are all quite closely related keys... But I guess I am very familiar with the changes of this tune. I know it well.

[Question]

Hi James W,

maybe "difficult" is the wrong word. The keys and chords are easy for me and I know them well.

I think I erroneously implied in my (now edited) first post that that I was having a hard time in this take.
That is not the case; I spent time practicing my weakness and got to the point where I am fairly satisfied with this version.

What I meant specifically is being able to weave a lyrical and coherent solo with good time. This becomes more "difficult" when I start trying to harmonize parts of my improvised melodic idea in real time.

I listened to your Stella version on the other thread, and although I hear you playing some nice lines, sometimes the chord connections also seem to catch you off guard. (this is meant as a constructive criticism and just something maybe to reflect on!).

I am trying to phrase melodies somewhat free of the harmonic rhythm and the more unusual the harmony moves the trickier it becomes.

[James W]

Thanks for listening.

Anyone is free to infer what they like from my playing, but I think, rather than being caught off guard by the chord changes, my main weakness is poor articulation caused by relatively weak right hand technique. I'm still in the process of training these digits...

But to get back to your rendition: you are absolutely successful in weaving lines around those changes.

[Question]

Hi James,

ok, I see. Upon second listening I stand corrected.

I thought that you sounded stronger with a pick in your earlier videos. There are very few players that I know of who can really swing with fingers. (I am not including players who use a thumb pick and alternate with another finger).

It can be done be for me it just makes it more difficult. Everyone does it their own way and many players have made great music with much more unorthodox techniques. Carry on!

[kris]

After reading 62 pages of discussions about the original chords to Stella, I decided to record a version with the harmony as it is (mostly) currently played.

I find navigating this tune more difficult than Giant Steps due to the unusual harmony movement and my weakness with half-diminished chords.

It is not that I don't know what to play on half-dim., it is more a question of building strong coherent lines.

Although I don't believe that Ed Bickert ever recorded Stella, he was my inspiration on this one.

Ed Bickert had a great and unique way when playing trio of accompanying himself with not only chord stabs, but also using counterpoint and chords within his melodic content.

Sort of harmonizing just sections of a line and not block-chording the whole thing.


Anyway, here it is with help from Mr. Sunny Bass. (and Peter Erskine)

Very nice playing.
Best
Kris

[James W]

Hi James,

ok, I see. Upon second listening I stand corrected.

I thought that you sounded stronger with a pick in your earlier videos. There are very few players that I know of who can really swing with fingers. (I am not including players who use a thumb pick and alternate with another finger).

It can be done be for me it just makes it more difficult. Everyone does it their own way and many players have made great music with much more unorthodox techniques. Carry on!

Thank you for paying attention to my playing.

As I've said previously, the pick is good in a superficial sort of way, but if you listen closely to my recordings where I use my Fender Mustang, you will hear my pick at times hit the body of the guitar, a sure sign that I was string-hopping (it didn't happen with my Godin 5th Avenue because of the large gap between the strings and body of the guitar on that instrument).

Now, I found myself unable to escape the habit of string-hopping. Hence, I decided to ditch the pick altogether in March 2024 and started classical guitar again. So just a few weeks ago I decided to start attempting to play jazz again, only this time fingerstyle. It still feels and sounds a bit cumbersome but at least I know and can sense I've made progress fingerstyle because I'm doing it the correct way even if it takes a long time, as compared to the pick where I was seemingly unable to break out of the wrong habit.

TBH I am also developing my legato chops too. Because it makes sense to develop one's strengths as well as work on weaknesses... I would just need to figure out how the legato lines would work on jazz standards - and the tempo is all important in this respect.

[Question]

Hi James,

I would encourage you to not completely give up on using a pick as both fingers and pick are useful tools. I use both as well as trying to get better at Hybrid picking.

What you might try to remedy what you call "string-hopping" is this:

Hold the pick between your thumb and the curved flat side of your index finger and only let a small amount of the pick protrude out from your thumb. This will not allow the pick to hit the guitar body because your thumb will keep it from getting too deep beneath the strings. When I changed from gripping the pick with two instead of three fingers, my tone and stability improved considerably as well as giving me an extra finger when hybrid-picking. (I don't know what your grip is exactly).

When I started filming myself, I noticed that I rest my pinky on the pick-guard. This is probably considered a bad habit by some but it doesn't seem to hinder me. This also helps to keep the pick at roughly the same depth into the strings.
You might try this as well.

Everyone's anatomy and technique is different and there is no right way, but in your case your pick-grip could at least possibly solve this string-hopping issue.

I suspect that you don't have a weakness (as you put it) in your right hand, rather you just might not be getting a stable and consistent attack due to your technique.

I have had to unlearn and relearn many things so I am aware that trying to do what I am suggesting might be a big undertaking.

Hope that helps!

P.S. I am reluctant to give advice on a forum, but in this case I am sort of "practicing what I preach" so you can decide if my technique in the video might be the sort of thing that would benefit you.

[Mick-7]

Hi James W, maybe "difficult" is the wrong word. The keys and chords are easy for me and I know them well.

What I meant specifically is being able to weave a lyrical and coherent solo, and always being able to find a good resolution without stumbling or messing up the time. This becomes more "difficult" when I start trying to harmonize parts of my improvised melodic idea in real time.

The best way I've found to address that issue is to slow down, focus on creating and playing melodies, avoid playing scale-oriented lines that outline the chord changes. Playing too much will tend to mess up your timing.

[CliffR]

Lovely! A stellar performance!

[Question]

Mick,

I normally refrain from responding to your countless posts, which I suspect you believe are well intended, but as Peter and others have pointed out in other threads, your messages often have a tone of "superiority complex" or "sour grapes" and are frankly often condescending.

If you don't feel that I have reached my goal in this video of playing a lyrical and coherent solo in time, that is fine.
I am not posting to get compliments or advice, I play/write music for a living and get constant feedback.

I have already stated that my motivation for posting on this forum is primarily to inspire and help less experienced players get better, maybe think about what motivates you.

If you sincerely wish to be constructive, then please post an unedited video of yourself playing Stella in time demonstrating how you would navigate the harmony with a concept like Keith Jarret's (your words), because thus far I haven't heard anything that you have posted that would justify placing any weight on your advice.


I am not posting this with any malice, but it does make me reconsider my active participation in this forum.

[Tone bar]

What I meant specifically is being able to weave a lyrical and coherent solo, and always being able to find a good resolution without stumbling or messing up the time.

Playing sounds really nice. I do hear how you lose a 'tad' of momentum on the solo. I would suggest phrasing following in suit of the melody, being a little more diatonic and utilizing key centers, then outlining changes where convenient or for harmonic effect. Rather than getting hung up on outlining every single disjunct change and trying to balance that with keeping a logical progression of emotion in the melody.

[Question]

Hi Tone Bar,

Thanks.

It's easy to lose momentum when the rhythm section doesn't follow or interact with the soloist!

I think I erroneously implied in my (now edited) first post that that I was having a hard time in this take.
That is not the case; I spent time practicing my weakness and got to the point where I am fairly satisfied with this version.

Please post a video of you playing Stella in real time, not just theoretical ideas, I would be very interested.

The Bass track is on YouTube from "Mr. Sunny Bass".

[alltunes]

Nice playing indeed….and great tone.

The backing sounds natural…even of no interaction.

So you synched up Mr Sunny Bass YT with a drum track? how?

Where is the drum track from? I like it.

[Question]

Hi alltunes,

Thanks. I am not completely satisfied with the tone and have been searching for a better instrument for years.

Mr. Sunny Bass records to a metronome so you first need to figure out his tempo. This one is 164bpm.

The drums are a sample library that Peter Erskine made many years ago that has some brushes/swing beats etc..

The drum library is quite limited so there is some finessing to get some variation in the track.

(there are much better Kontakt libraries now, which I don't have called "Straight Ahead Drums" and"Straight Ahead Bass")

The drums are played in Stylus RMX software in Logic Pro that will sync to tempo.

I had to move the bass in a few spots where he gets slightly behind the beat when walking, but generally he is quite good and has a good sound and intonation. (you won't notice it if you are just playing with the bass)


Even with all of the trickery it is still like playing with musicians who don't listen!


Hope that helps!

[James W]

Hi James,

I would encourage you to not completely give up on using a pick as both fingers and pick are useful tools. I use both as well as trying to get better at Hybrid picking.

What you might try to remedy what you call "string-hopping" is this:

Hold the pick between your thumb and the curved flat side of your index finger and only let a small amount of the pick protrude out from your thumb. This will not allow the pick to hit the guitar body because your thumb will keep it from getting too deep beneath the strings. When I changed from gripping the pick with two instead of three fingers, my tone and stability improved considerably as well as giving me an extra finger when hybrid-picking. (I don't know what your grip is exactly).

When I started filming myself, I noticed that I rest my pinky on the pick-guard. This is probably considered a bad habit by some but it doesn't seem to hinder me. This also helps to keep the pick at roughly the same depth into the strings.
You might try this as well.

Everyone's anatomy and technique is different and there is no right way, but in your case your pick-grip could at least possibly solve this string-hopping issue.

I suspect that you don't have a weakness (as you put it) in your right hand, rather you just might not be getting a stable and consistent attack due to your technique.

I have had to unlearn and relearn many things so I am aware that trying to do what I am suggesting might be a big undertaking.

Hope that helps!

P.S. I am reluctant to give advice on a forum, but in this case I am sort of "practicing what I preach" so you can decide if my technique in the video might be the sort of thing that would benefit you.

Thanks for the advice; I appreciate it.

However, the term 'string hopping' isn't mine and it's not just me who calls it that. See this video -

Indeed, relearning to use a plectrum would be a very big undertaking, particularly if I were to try to do it correctly. I'd rather spend the time building on where I have already got with my fingerstyle technique. I am now determined to try to get a consistent and stable attack just using my fingers.

[Christian Miller]

Sounds good to me! I like the bluesy touches too. They don't feel out of place and add a bit of vibe to the thing.

I like the tone. Depends what you are going for I suppose. Sometimes you have to accept that you don't sound like your favourite players, no matter how hard you try. Tone is a very personal thing, and it's the main way people can tell it's you.

[Christian Miller]

Thanks for the advice; I appreciate it.

However, the term 'string hopping' isn't mine and it's not just me who calls it that. See this video -

Indeed, relearning to use a plectrum would be a very big undertaking, particularly if I were to try to do it correctly. I'd rather spend the time building on where I have already got with my fingerstyle technique. I am now determined to try to get a consistent and stable attack just using my fingers.

I know lot of people say it's not easy/possible to get a good swing feel with fingers, but TBH I always think it's more a reflection on their inability to do it. I can't see a convincing reason in principle why it shouldn't be done... It's about the accentuation and phrasing. A lot of pick players don't have that together frankly.

[James W]

I know lot of people say it's not easy/possible to get a good swing feel with fingers, but TBH I always think it's more a reflection on their inability to do it. I can't see a convincing reason in principle why it shouldn't be done... It's about the accentuation and phrasing. A lot of pick players don't have that together frankly.

As we know, Matteo Mancuso can get a convincing swing feel using his fingers. His rest stroke technique he likens to bass technique, and it would be a bit absurd to try to claim that bass players can't swing!

The hardest part in my experience in using the fingers, specifically with finger alternation, is the existence of awkward/non-ergonomic string crossing, which I discussed over on my fingerstyle thread in the technique section of this forum.

[pamosmusic]

After reading 7 pages of discussions about the original chords to Stella, I decided to record a version with the harmony as it is (mostly) currently played.

I find navigating this tune well somewhat difficult.

Although I don't believe that Ed Bickert ever recorded Stella, he was my inspiration on this one.

Ed Bickert had a great and unique way when playing trio of accompanying himself with not only chord stabs, but also using counterpoint and chords within his melodic content.

Sort of harmonizing just sections of a line and not block-chording the whole thing.


Anyway, here it is with help from Mr. Sunny Bass. (and Peter Erskine)

As the kids would say, it’s definitely giving Ed Bickert.

[Question]

Thanks Christian.

It isn't really just the tone; the intonation isn't that great and above the 12th fret it is quite dead.

Would like to have a high "D" 22 frets and better access to the upper register.

This is a ES175T Thinline not like your ES175D, so it is a bit "pingy". I like the sound that you get out of your 175, it's just too big for me.

It is not too far from the sound that I like, somewhere between a Telecaster and a jazz box.

I am not really trying to model my tone on anyone in particular and actually don't listen to guitar music much as my interests and taste are not remotely instrument specific. (can I say that on a Jazz guitar forum?)

[pamosmusic]

As we know, Matteo Mancuso can get a convincing swing feel using his fingers. His rest stroke technique he likens to bass technique, and it would be a bit absurd to try to claim that bass players can't swing!

The hardest part in my experience in using the fingers, specifically with finger alternation, is the existence of awkward/non-ergonomic string crossing, which I discussed over on my fingerstyle thread in the technique section of this forum.

I'm not a Mancuso hater, but I don't really think my dude swings. He can play the absolute crap out of a guitar, but ....

Charlie Byrd though. He's quite sloppy, especially compared to someone like Matteo, but he's got that bounce. Solo Joe Pass, of course.

EDIT: remembering that the first two jazz guitar albums I bought were Joe Pass Blues Dues and Charlie Byrd Bossa Nova Pelos Passaros.

Along with Brubeck at Oberlin, Borders Books c. 2005.

[Question]

Hi James,

yes I agree with what you and Christian say, swinging with fingers can be done.

I am also a bass player (not a bass owner, I actually play it on the same level) and although I play bass with mostly alternating index-middle in my right hand, for some reason I can not play swing on the guitar with my fingers.

Conversely, I can not play bass with a pick!

Also, when I play bass I can barely read treble clef, and on guitar I can barely read bass clef although I am a strong reader on both in their respective clefs.

[Christian Miller]

As we know, Matteo Mancuso can get a convincing swing feel using his fingers. His rest stroke technique he likens to bass technique, and it would be a bit absurd to try to claim that bass players can't swing!

The hardest part in my experience in using the fingers, specifically with finger alternation, is the existence of awkward/non-ergonomic string crossing, which I discussed over on my fingerstyle thread in the technique section of this forum.

TBH I don't really listen to Matteo that much, and the stuff I've heard is all straight 8's or fast swing (so basically similar to straight 8s), so I don't know really.

That said it sounds to me like he has really good articulation at those tempos - not just machine gun like, but playing phases. I can't see any reason in principle why he couldn't swing at slower tempos using that technique.

ATM he is a bit of an outlier, maybe less so as time goes on and more kids copy him?

Anyway, good luck! All techniques have their challenges, you have to choose your poison.

[James W]

I'm not a Mancuso hater, but I don't really think my dude swings. He can play the absolute crap out of a guitar, but ....

Charlie Byrd though. He's quite sloppy, especially compared to someone like Matteo, but he's got that bounce. Solo Joe Pass, of course.

EDIT: remembering that the first two jazz guitar albums I bought were Joe Pass Blues Dues and Charlie Byrd Bossa Nova Pelos Passaros.

Along with Brubeck at Oberlin, Borders Books c. 2005.

This swings, at least to my ears -