Giant Steps (again) 2025 with video

[Question]

My first forum post just over a year ago was a video of Giant Steps.

After reading the thread about "Thinking Fast" I decided to see if my fast tempo playing has improved since my last attempt.

Here is a video of Giant Steps with a playback from Phil Wilkenson. I sped it up 15% so I think the tempo is about 264bpm.

I am not using anything harmonically that most advanced players don't know; just focusing on playing on the changes and trying to phrase musically and avoid playing run-on sentences.

[deacon Mark]

That was nice i like the clear and pointed sound. It was as though you were attacking the changes as opposed to just trying to keep up. The difference to me is control and you were in control.

[Question]

@Deacon Mark

Thanks.

Yes, it is true that I am not just hanging some notes on the changes, I am purposefully implying the harmony in my lines.

It might sound to you as a listener that I am in control; I am somewhat, but I also feel that I am at the edge of my technical ability and hanging on for dear life!

As we all know, the faster the tempo the more difficult it becomes to think and articulate a musical idea, as well as to physically execute it in time.

As a result (for me) the melodic content unfortunately suffers at fast tempos.

[Mick-7]

As we all know, the faster the tempo the more difficult it becomes to think and articulate a musical idea, as well as to physically execute it in time. As a result (for me) the melodic content unfortunately suffers at fast tempos.

Yeah, you have to practice playing at fast tempos a lot to sound musically coherent, most musicians don't. You did well.

[kris]

Giant Steps....big applause for courage.
It is very difficult at a very fast tempo.
Often focusing at a fast tempo is limited to playing in the few most comfortable guitar positions.
This causes some sound restriction.
Joe Diorio 'Giant Steps' book opens the full potential of the sound of the guitar in this tune....I noticed this while practising this material.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Nice playing man. Add some chords in the spaces you’ve got going on? The years of work this takes are just the beginning

[Christian Miller]

Sounding great! Relaxed and some tasty lines.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

Yeah this sounds great. Even for players who play Giant Steps well (and I am not one) it's hard to play lyrical lines like yours. Cool!

[Woody Sound]

Great job! Nice use of the 3rd finger for the melody voice.

[Question]

Sorry that I am a bit slow in responding.

Thanks for all of the comments.

Kris "Giant Steps....big applause for courage".
ha ha. I think this is a language issue: it reminds me of that musicians joke where at the end of a performance someone comes up and says "I really dig what you are trying to do".


Woody Sound: Great job! Nice use of the 3rd finger for the melody voice.

I went back to have a look and I don't think I played any note in the melody with my third finger; maybe this was supposed to be ironic (?)


Mark: "Add some chords in the spaces you’ve got going on? The years of work this takes are just the beginning"

I actually avoided too many chords in the solo because it was causing rhythmic dissonance with the organ, who is playing many short stabs in his comping.
I managed to get away with playing chords in the theme but even there sometimes it bothered me rhythmically.

I took your advice and got into my time machine to avoid all of the years of work I would have needed to learn how to play chords.
Now I have returned to the present with my new knowledge and recorded an improvised Giant Steps version as sort of a homage to your unique and beautiful way of playing.

Giant Steps the "Free" Version:

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Sorry that I am a bit slow in responding.

Thanks for all of the comments.

Kris "Giant Steps....big applause for courage".
ha ha. I think this is a language issue: it reminds me of that musicians joke where at the end of a performance someone comes up and says "I really dig what you are trying to do".


Woody Sound: Great job! Nice use of the 3rd finger for the melody voice.

I went back to have a look and I don't think I played any note in the melody with my third finger; maybe this was supposed to be ironic (?)


Mark: "Add some chords in the spaces you’ve got going on? The years of work this takes are just the beginning"

I actually avoided too many chords in the solo because it was causing rhythmic dissonance with the organ, who is playing many short stabs in his comping.
I managed to get away with playing chords in the theme but even there sometimes it bothered me rhythmically.

I took your advice and got into my time machine to avoid all of the years of work I would have needed to learn how to play chords.
Now I have returned to the present with my new knowledge and recorded an improvised Giant Steps version as sort of a homage to your unique and beautiful way of playing.

So, this “free” version is way much more to my liking- it’s beautifully done and deep in musical wisdom. I’m not saying that just because your said it was an homage (and you sound like you anyway, and not me) or anything of the kind- I just feel this is really complete orchestral solo guitar playing. Now, my only question is why you are hiding your identity? You’re obviously a very highly accomplished player and well known in some circle or another.

[Question]

Hi Mark,

I am hiding my face, not my identity. My information is in my user profile as well as my website address.

I wrote who I am and my motivation for posting here in the "Are you new" part of the forum.

Here is the short version: I have been making my living playing Bass and Guitar since 1980, in 2002 I transitioned into (almost) exclusively writing music for film. In 2022 I decided to stop composing for film for various reasons and get back to playing.
I am trying to get my playing back to where I was 22 years ago and using this platform to stay motivated as well as possibly help the less experienced players get inspired.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Hi Mark,

I am hiding my face, not my identity. My information is in my user profile as well as my website address.

I wrote who I am and my motivation for posting here in the "Are you new" part of the forum.

Here is the short version: I have been making my living playing Bass and Guitar since 1980, in 2002 I transitioned into (almost) exclusively writing music for film. In 2022 I decided to stop composing for film for various reasons and get back to playing.
I am trying to get my playing back to where I was 22 years ago and using this platform to stay motivated as well as possibly help the less experienced players get inspired.

Thanks, I didn’t see any of the info on your profile until I went back to dig for it. Glad to meet you!

[Ingo Lee]

Very well done Question! I struggle with that tune; tempos are one issue but those changes are difficult to phrase over at any tempo, to my ear at least. But you've done quite well here and I hope to learn from your post. Funny about "run on sentences"; we work hard to get comfortable at a certain tempo and it becomes irresistible to try and grab one more bunch of notes!

As far as the internet goes I'm big on privacy, I think publishing personal information is risky. I saw one incident where a forum member (not this forum) used the personal information of another forum member to prevent him from getting some work and then bragged about it in a post. Nasty! Beyond that there are large organizations that are obsessively collecting and manipulating our personal information without our permission which I object to. Just my 2 cents worth!

[Question]

@Ingo Lee

Yes it is tricky to phrase over GS, but if you make it a habit to always practice phrasing the way that you want to play in real life, at some point you will probably find that you can't do it any other way.

This has been my experience; and it also likely has to do with what type of players and instruments you listen to.

Horn players and singers need to breath!

[Ingo Lee]

@Ingo Lee

Yes it is tricky to phrase over GS, but if you make it a habit to always practice phrasing the way that you want to play in real life, at some point you will probably find that you can't do it any other way.

This has been my experience; and it also likely has to do with what type of players and instruments you listen to.

Horn players and singers need to breath!

Well you did very well with both versions here and they are very different. You have more of a theme and development type approach with the slower version which I suppose is more your typical approach. Many players play this tune mechanically and I suppose that's what you have to do to get it up to speed. But both of your versions are very nice.

Can you describe your approach in general, do you practice just repertoire or do you work on some scales and exercises? Also what amp are you using if you don't mind?

[Question]

@Ingo Lee

I explained a bit about my approach in response to a question from Kris in the "Chord Melody" section where I also posted the free version of GS.

Short version: I don't really practice scales and exercises much, rather building melodic lines over tunes, and more importantly finding good resolutions. That frees me to rhythmically modify any melodic idea that I play to fit the musical context because I can usually find a way to end my phrase on a good resolution.

Does that make sense?

Amp is a Princeton.

[Question]

I started this thread with my videos several months ago mainly because I was interested to hear others' strategies in navigating complex harmonies. (maybe I should have been more specific)

Is anyone interested in sharing how they approach mastering improvising over complex harmonies? Not just fast tempos, but complex harmony in general.

I am interested in how YOU do it, NOT videos of others who do it, or comments like (insert name here) can play it better than you etc..

A video of you (not someone else) demonstrating the concept you propose in your post would be nice, since talk is cheap and doing it is the hard part. (doesn't need to be a fast tempo)

[Adam C.]

Hey Question!
Here’s a short that I did a while ago on Moment’s Notice. Even if it’s not as complex as Giant Steps, Countdown…
But I was working a lot on keeping the control of the phrases on fast changes, mainly thinking about arpeggios plus extensions and finding common notes for multiple chords in a row.

Again, it’s not very complex in term of changes, but I’ll try to improvise on one in the next days, it’s a good challenge!

Quick Chorus: Moment’s Notice - YouTube

[ragman1]

Is anyone interested in sharing how they approach mastering improvising over complex harmonies? Not just fast tempos, but complex harmony in general.

I can do complex harmony but not fast. Fast isn't really in my DNA for some reason, it's not just age.

Basically I tend to take one chord at a time but strictly in context. A dominant resolving to its one tends to get an altered sound. A dominant not resolving to its one could get something diatonic, or perhaps a tritone sub, or a blues sound, but never more than, say, a flat or sharp nine.

Minors tend to stay minors and majors tend to be played as-is or given the lydian touch.

I tend to minorize a lot which I find makes soloing easier. Also what I do tends to depend very much on the tune itself. There's a bit more to it than that but basically I can get round most things with ease. Mostly it involves being very familiar with chord shapes and positions, scale patterns and possible substitutes. I tend to know what effects my notes are going to have on a specific chord or phrase.

To give a quick example, take Fall by Shorter. That's complex for most players. The first 4 bars repeat so I'm only using bars 5 to 12:

C#m13 - B7b9 - E7sus - EbM7#11
DM7 - D7b9#11 - Gm11 - Bm9/AbM7#11

C#m13 --- 13 is only an extension so I'd just play C#m. I tend to be fluid as to whether it's natural, harmonic, melodic, or even bluesy, because it doesn't really matter in a tune like this.

B7b9 --- I'd probably play Ab melodic over it which gives it a 13b9 sound.

E7sus --- I'd use the minor from the sus note, ie. Am. The pentatonic is easiest because it neatly avoids the G#.

EbM7#11 --- Bb maj scale or arpeggiate a D minor.

DM7 --- We're not in the key of D major so that too would be treated as lydian (A maj or C#m arp).

D7b9#11 --- That would just be treated like an altered chord, so Eb melodic minor.

Gm11 --- Dorian, but perhaps flexible :-)

Bm9/AbM7#11 --- Probably just use the Bm and Gm, it's simpler.

This is a brief sound of these notes over those chords:

[Question]

Hi Adam,

yes very nice! Like the use of space.

For some reason I don't find Moments Notice any less challenging than Giant Steps.

You have a much more modern approach compared to my slightly old fashioned way. Likely due to the fact that I am probably double your age!

Your idea using common tones is also something that I utilize, but in these Coltrane type of changes there are often very few between adjacent chords.

I am not a overly analytical player, but I think what I am doing is just starting a melodic idea and trying to modify it on the fly to fit the harmony, as opposed to thinking of each chord.

I don't consciously really "think" the chords at all; I just hear them in my head. At this tempo I am probably 90% ear.

[Adam C.]

Thank you!

It’s still quite a challenge, agree. Different changes, but still not so standard.

Haha, no man! And on the other hand I really like your playing, not sure if I can call it a more tradiotional approach, but I know I can’t do it that well!

Hmm, it maybe depends on the thinking process while playing, for example in Giant Steps I see on the Bmaj7 chord the note B and connect it directly to the D7 chord, so ok, it’s the 13th of D7. Same for the notes D#/Eb (maj3 of Bmaj7, b9 of D7), note E#/F (#11 of Bmaj7, #9 of D7), note F# (5th of Bmaj7, maj3 of D7), note G# (13th of Bmaj7, #11 of D7), note A# (maj7 of Bmaj7, #5 of D7).
In that way I can find a “sound formula” that I like, let’s say notes B, Eb, E#, F and G# will get me close to the sound of the diminished scale (not complete of course). And to those add cromatic approach and enclosures to have a wider selection of notes to create melodies.
I then apply the same thinking over other chords, connecting them to the next…

But as mentioned before, your improvisation sounds far more melodic, with the method I use the result is a bit more “square” or “mathematic”.

I’ll try to work again on those tunes in the next days, let’s see if I can survive.

[Question]

Hi Adam,

you might be thinking too complex. With a tune like GS, if your goal is to get the sound of the chords in your lines, you might lean into playing much less altered material.

I started learning Countdown today and read through Coltrane's amazing solo; it is mostly diatonic to the harmony with some connecting material like enclosures, chromatic etc.. At 300 BPM he doesn't miss one chord!
His Giant Steps solo is also very inside and is still great.

This might be considered an outdated way to play today; but I personally think it really helps to be able to do it well before moving on to a more modern approach.

[grahambop]

We did Moment’s Notice some time ago as a tune of the week, this was my take. My ‘strategy’ was to simplify it by hearing the changes as familiar progression chunks as much as possible (such as ii-v) and not get bogged down going at it chord-by-chord. The tricky part was the way those chunks shift around chromatically, but after practising the tune for a while I was eventually able to hear the way the harmonic ‘targets’ move, and play lines that fit them.

At this tempo I cannot think about individual chords much, I just have to have the changes internalised as sounds and movements which I can hear well enough to play over.

Has to be said that tunes with less common harmonic progressions (such as Giant Steps or Inner Urge) give me more trouble. For those, I have to start by composing lines that work well, and try to develop it from there. (I’m still working on those two!)

[Question]

Hi Graham,

very nice.

Yes I remember your take, I also posted a MN version on that thread a few years later.
I remember you talking about getting the sound of the chords in your head and realized that is also what I am doing.

There might be a misconception that good players are actually thinking "play Eb here-don't forget that flat 9th there".
I might be doing that when learning a tune but that will never work for me at this tempo.

Even in my "Free" GS version in post #10 of this thread, I am still using mostly my ear and not thinking in names or numbers.

I don't really "compose" lines that I would actually play, but I definitely worked out various ways to connect the chords in GS.

I also almost always sing the lines as I practice, which I think helps me to be more melodic and less formulaic.

I like that Dizzy quote "I think of a rhythm and then hang the notes on it" (paraphrasing)

Anyway, this shows we have some commonality in our process.