How do you practice phrasing?

[kris]

I mean … where would you imagine I got the notion that jazz musicians phrase over the barline?

From analytical listening.

Sometimes though it’s helpful to think of a way to practice the thing I gleaned from the analytical listening. Maybe it’s different for you, but the focused listening has to be followed by pretty focused practicing for me, or it doesn’t always come out.

I don't mean myself here, but I know people who don't have the slightest problem with it.
I don't know what it depends on - probably talent.One person has to play it 100 times and the other only, for example-20 times.

[bediles]

Play the rhythms of a famous solo and pick your own notes.

Try Sandu by Clifford Brown bc you don't have to make the changes, just play blues.

Maybe play a bit of the solo too, won't hurt.

[ccroft]

A great deal can be learned about phrasing by listening to and learning some Clifford Brown. I don't try to force myself to play like that though. I learn a few heads, play along, listen a lot and try to let it sink in.

I've also done my share of all kinds of rhythmic exercises along the line. It all helps.

[pamosmusic]

The same for me. Things need to be practiced over a long time period before it comes out naturally without sounding forced.

Me too but with the added step of Getting Frustrated and Quitting for Several Weeks Only To See It In My Playing After I’ve Forgotten About It Entirely

[darkwaters]

For me, I find that staring at the fingerboard can cause me to play in a very “robotic” manner; very unmusical, especially when I’m learning a new tune. The danger for me is that this will become a bad habit.

My solution is to practice a phrase, once I know where my fingers are supposed to go, with my eyes closed. I find that this works very well to allow me to connect emotionally with the phrase and get inside it.

[WesParker]

Besides singing, internal melody building, there is such thing as 'question vs answer', which came from the blues and archaic singing. Developing such phrasing is monumentally hard, as you have to expand your vocablurary more and more. Plus, to be original you are to 'forget' some primitive stories as 'Hi / Bye', 'Mon amie... / Leave now!'

Ideally, you follow your instinct of storyteller and include happy end at the end.

[pamosmusic]

Play rest excercise:

rest for:

1(beat)
2
3
4
5
etc

play for:

1
2
3
4
5
Etc

mix and match play/rest numbers. Some challenging, some not so much.

after some proficiency is gained with the above, move on to:

motivic development excercise:

play a motif

leave space

play a development of that motif

Repeat with same motif at first, then vary after a development or two.

consider all the ways you can permutate the above exercise.

Ah yeah the play-rest one is a bit like mine above but yours is more likely to get the challenging phrases. If you’re doing a 4-8-16 beat phrase, then it doesn’t really matter the combination of beats and rest. The really tough ones are when the length of the phrase doesn’t fall evenly across the form. A 12-beat phrase … a bit tricky. A 13-beat phrase … bananas difficult.

Nice motivic development idea. I intend to over-systematize that kind of thing.

[James W]

Aren't we sort of diverging a bit from what phrasing is and how to practice it? I feel the last few contributions (or maybe more, I haven't looked recently at the rest of this thread) are more like improvisation exercises rather than phrasing. I think phrasing is the 'how' rather than the 'what' i.e. it's how you play a line - that is to say, where you put the accents and slurs in and your sense of swing, also dynamics etc.

[ragman1]

If I had to play in 5/4 then I think I'd be practicing some phrasing. With 4/4 or 3/4, not a problem, comes naturally.

[pamosmusic]

Aren't we sort of diverging a bit from what phrasing is and how to practice it? I feel the last few contributions (or maybe more, I haven't looked recently at the rest of this thread) are more like improvisation exercises rather than phrasing. I think phrasing is the 'how' rather than the 'what' i.e. it's how you play a line - that is to say, where you put the accents and slurs in and your sense of swing, also dynamics etc.

I usually think of phrasing as being all the non-pitch stuff. But there are also ways to go about practicing some of those things, and clearly defined terminology.

Like articulation — I think it’s certainly an element of phrasing but also lots of ways to practice it (been kind of obsessed with some of them lately).

Rhythm too.

I guess when I’m talking about practicing phrasing, I’m usually thinking of the basket of stuff that’s leftover when I’ve practiced all the other stuff. Phrase length. When to start or end an idea. You mention swing feel, or maybe time feel. Those things.

All the other stuff is phrasing too though, probably.

[Chris236]

Aren't we sort of diverging a bit from what phrasing is and how to practice it? I feel the last few contributions (or maybe more, I haven't looked recently at the rest of this thread) are more like improvisation exercises rather than phrasing. I think phrasing is the 'how' rather than the 'what' i.e. it's how you play a line - that is to say, where you put the accents and slurs in and your sense of swing, also dynamics etc.

Not sure which posts you’re referring to….I removed mine to limit such discussions, but Peter quoted me first.

What you’re referring to is articulation, which can be important to a phrase, but isn’t the phrase itself…..which can be defined as a complete musical idea, framed with space.

you may notice that the excercises i eluded to address both the idea AND the space.

enjoy!

[Chris236]

Ah yeah the play-rest one is a bit like mine above but yours is more likely to get the challenging phrases. If you’re doing a 4-8-16 beat phrase, then it doesn’t really matter the combination of beats and rest. The really tough ones are when the length of the phrase doesn’t fall evenly across the form. A 12-beat phrase … a bit tricky. A 13-beat phrase … bananas difficult.

Nice motivic development idea. I intend to over-systematize that kind of thing.

The asymmetrical combos where you’re starting in a new place in time until the cycle completes are the hardest. I find it interesting how working on this kind of stuff, improves your ears and technique, in addition to general musicality and depth of ‘knowing’ a tune. Good fun.

[PatrickWD]

Aren't we sort of diverging a bit from what phrasing is and how to practice it? I feel the last few contributions (or maybe more, I haven't looked recently at the rest of this thread) are more like improvisation exercises rather than phrasing. I think phrasing is the 'how' rather than the 'what' i.e. it's how you play a line - that is to say, where you put the accents and slurs in and your sense of swing, also dynamics etc.

Phrasing can mean different things in different contexts.

What you are describing is how the term is used in a more classical music setting, but in jazz the term phrasing usually has a much wider meaning.

I see it as focusing on the relationship and placement of musical phrases. Where do you play, where do you rest, what is the melodic curve between phrases, how do one phrase relate to the previous one etc.

[Lionelsax]

I wonder if you discuss the same way when it's about cooking an egg, drinking a glass of water, peeing, etc..
Are you teaching in a University or something like that ?

[pamosmusic]

I generally assume that folks who drop in on threads about practicing and disparage practicing are absolutely jaw dropping musicians with nothing of their own to work on.

Just for whatever that’s worth.

[pamosmusic]

I wonder if you discuss the same way when it's about cooking an egg, drinking a glass of water, peeing, etc..
Are you teaching in a University or something like that ?

And as the parent of a toddler, I can tell you that everyone practices peeing about as much as we practice anything else. It’s just that by the time we sit down at a keyboard to drop in on a jazz guitar forum, we’ve usually forgotten having made that little journey.

[Chris236]

I wonder if you discuss the same way when it's about cooking an egg, drinking a glass of water, peeing, etc..
Are you teaching in a University or something like that ?

When I was a kid I had an ensemble teacher who was a great player and it was a well known fact that he loved to transcribe…music for the ensembles, solos, whatever struck his fancy. As cocky teenagers we jokingly hassled him about it to which he said something like - “why wouldn’t I want to learn all I possibly could about the music I love?”…..that stuck with me.

[pamosmusic]

When I was a kid I had an ensemble teacher who was a great player and it was a well known fact that he loved to transcribe…music for the ensembles, solos, whatever struck his fancy. As cocky teenagers we jokingly hassled him about it to which he said something like - “why wouldn’t I want to learn all I possibly could about the music I love?”…..that stuck with me.

Or the roughly equivalent … maybe I can play music already, but why wouldn’t I want to be as good at it as I possibly can be?

[Lionelsax]

When I was a kid I had an ensemble teacher who was a great player and it was a well known fact that he loved to transcribe…music for the ensembles, solos, whatever struck his fancy. As cocky teenagers we jokingly hassled him about it to which he said something like - “why wouldn’t I want to learn all I possibly could about the music I love?”…..that stuck with me.

What about your own experience ?

[Chris236]

What about your own experience ?

Experience with transcribing? Still not a fan personally, but understand the attraction.

[Lionelsax]

Experience with transcribing? Still not a fan personally, but understand the attraction.

No, only about phrasing.

[Chris236]

No, only about phrasing.

It’s multifaceted, but I personally found the exercises I posted to be profoundly expansive and helpful.

[pamosmusic]

It’s multifaceted, but I personally found the exercises I posted to be profoundly expansive and helpful.

I would agree. But I suppose that’s only true if you’re interested in having your ear expanded.

Speaking for myself, that was why I started the thread.

Shrug.