“I don't care if a dude is purple with green breath as long as he can swing.”

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

That was my first reaction to the quote. It might depend on when he said it. Frances's husband was a much different man from Cicely's husband.

There are many pretty nasty stories about Miles that remain unconfirmed - so I don't know which are true and which are not. As we might have expected, Ian Carr's biography of Miles is tougher on him than his own autobiography - and even his autobiography comes clean about a number of pretty awful things he did. There are many stories about how he refused to talk to Caucasians at all for a period, although Mike Stern has always been generally positive about him in published interviews. Whether these are true may never be known by any of us, since most of those with whom he interacted at the time are now dead.

His behavior was specious to say the least when he was battling addiction. He stole money from fellow musicians or stole their belongings and pawned them. He was a serial abuser of women, and he got into a lot of fights with everyone from promoters to bartenders. Miles was not a very nice guy, although Cicely Tyson seemes to have tamed him significantly. Sadly, she got to him too late in his life to avoid a lot of the serious trouble into which he got himself over many years.

There are some great stories about him that give us a glimpse into his mind. An old friend of mine (Chuck Berlin, now deceased) was Al Hirt's pianist. They were the house band at a large New Orleans hotel (the Hilton, as I recall) for some time before Luther Kent. Chuck told me they went on break one night and he passed a "little guy" who was sitting alone at a table with his head down. The little guy never looked up - he just said "You made a mistake in the last tune" as Chuck walked by his table. So Chuck stopped and asked what he'd played wrong, and the guy told him something fairly insignificant like that he'd played a 2 minor 7th that should have been a 4 maj 7 in a specific bar. The little guy looked up at him for a second, and it was Miles. Then he put his head back down and never said another word.

One of my favorites happened when he was at Julliard. They were discussing the relationships among keys for various instruments in a class, and the professor asked him where the trumpet would be if the guitars were playing in concert E. Miles replied, "In the f*cking case".

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I'm sorry but knowing this forum's demographic, I have absolutely no interest to be in a 'swing room' with them... not judging, but you're all not quite my type.

[sgcim]

There are many pretty nasty stories about Miles that remain unconfirmed - so I don't know which are true and which are not. As we might have expected, Ian Carr's biography of Miles is tougher on him than his own autobiography - and even his autobiography comes clean about a number of pretty awful things he did. There are many stories about how he refused to talk to Caucasians at all for a period, although Mike Stern has always been generally positive about him in published interviews. Whether these are true may never be known by any of us, since most of those with whom he interacted at the time are now dead.

His behavior was specious to say the least when he was battling addiction. He stole money from fellow musicians or stole their belongings and pawned them. He was a serial abuser of women, and he got into a lot of fights with everyone from promoters to bartenders. Miles was not a very nice guy, although Cicely Tyson seemes to have tamed him significantly. Sadly, she got to him too late in his life to avoid a lot of the serious trouble into which he got himself over many years.

There are some great stories about him that give us a glimpse into his mind. An old friend of mine (Chuck Berlin, now deceased) was Al Hirt's pianist. They were the house band at a large New Orleans hotel (the Hilton, as I recall) for some time before Luther Kent. Chuck told me they went on break one night and he passed a "little guy" who was sitting alone at a table with his head down. The little guy never looked up - he just said "You made a mistake in the last tune" as Chuck walked by his table. So Chuck stopped and asked what he'd played wrong, and the guy told him something fairly insignificant like that he'd played a 2 minor 7th that should have been a 4 maj 7 in a specific bar. The little guy looked up at him for a second, and it was Miles. Then he put his head back down and never said another word.

One of my favorites happened when he was at Julliard. They were discussing the relationships among keys for various instruments in a class, and the professor asked him where the trumpet would be if the guitars were playing in concert E. Miles replied, "In the f*cking case".

My sister worked at the Fillmore East back when Miles played there. She opened the door to one of the rest rooms once, and Miles was alone in there, snorting cocaine at the sink!
After one concert at the Fillmore, some guy kept calling out to Miles asking him what he thought about the four valve trumpet.
Miles refused to answer him, but the guy persisted in asking him.
Miles finally gave in and said to the guy, "I'll tell you what I think of the four valve trumpet; F-CK the four valve trumpet!!!!"

An ex-girlfriend of mine and her pianist boyfriend at the time were at a party that Miles was at. He came up to them and asked them if they wanted to do a menage-a-trois with them. They were freaked out at the thought of it, and told him, "uh, no that's alright."

[sgcim]

Then there's the story about when he had Pepper Adams in his group, and Pepper got sick of hearing Miles play the same solos every night, so he started playing along with them, down 8va.
The next thing he knew, Miles fired him from the group!

[sgcim]

....should it be called swing guitar rather than jazz guitar? My favorite jazz insult was Miles commenting on Ringo Starr. "He couldn't swing if he was hangin."

I read that quote attributed to Art Blakey in the book "Notes and Tones" by Art Taylor.
Blakey said, "A white musician couldn't swing if he was hangin; from a rope!"

[StuartF]

Of course, "hangin' from a rope" is a phrase with some pretty serious racial overtones.

[eh6794-2.0]

I played with Kid Ramos when both of us joined a Django jam session at The Barn in Orange County California, a few decades ago. Both of us didn't last long at these jams but it was nice hearing him try to play Django tunes. I say try to play since it wasn't his style, but it was still refreshing to hear someone with his skills play his solo instead of the Django "nuts" that try to play like Django, often note-for-note. Ramos was the only one that was interested in my Gibson L-7. The others: well I didn't have the right guitar for a Django Jam. I also wanted to play some jazz standards instead of the same Django tunes over and over again.

Oh, well, it just wasn't my type of jam.

That would have been cool to hear

[Alter]

I think in every style of music, getting the fine, rhythmic subtleties down is the most difficult thing to do. Once you've done it, you really have the music down. Getting an authentic feel, time, and groove sense is the hardest thing, and evolves like anything else as the player gets better. It's really the essence of every music style.

[Reg]

yea... as a kid and not being rhythmically challenged... helped. And part of those skills are knowing or being aware of rhythmic patterns, and how to play them as well as how to imply them all with in a Form.

I do agree with OP but I also believe it should be a given, part of learning how to play. I would start with learning how to Subdivide and the difference between using triplets and eights when subdividing. And developing that mental switch of being able to turn on and off straight or swing time.

[ragman1]

“I don't care if a dude is purple with green breath as long as he can swing.”

Soon as I read that I thought that's a description of Miles Davis (probably of himself by himself). And, lo...

So what? (no pun intended). Quite right. Obviously right.

Unless Miles objected to his appearance, naturally :-)

[princeplanet]

There are many pretty nasty stories about Miles that remain unconfirmed - so I don't know which are true and which are not. As we might have expected, Ian Carr's biography of Miles is tougher on him than his own autobiography - and even his autobiography comes clean about a number of pretty awful things he did. There are many stories about how he refused to talk to Caucasians at all for a period, although Mike Stern has always been generally positive about him in published interviews. Whether these are true may never be known by any of us, since most of those with whom he interacted at the time are now dead.

His behavior was specious to say the least when he was battling addiction. He stole money from fellow musicians or stole their belongings and pawned them. He was a serial abuser of women, and he got into a lot of fights with everyone from promoters to bartenders. Miles was not a very nice guy, although Cicely Tyson seemes to have tamed him significantly. Sadly, she got to him too late in his life to avoid a lot of the serious trouble into which he got himself over many years.

There are some great stories about him that give us a glimpse into his mind. An old friend of mine (Chuck Berlin, now deceased) was Al Hirt's pianist. They were the house band at a large New Orleans hotel (the Hilton, as I recall) for some time before Luther Kent. Chuck told me they went on break one night and he passed a "little guy" who was sitting alone at a table with his head down. The little guy never looked up - he just said "You made a mistake in the last tune" as Chuck walked by his table. So Chuck stopped and asked what he'd played wrong, and the guy told him something fairly insignificant like that he'd played a 2 minor 7th that should have been a 4 maj 7 in a specific bar. The little guy looked up at him for a second, and it was Miles. Then he put his head back down and never said another word.

One of my favorites happened when he was at Julliard. They were discussing the relationships among keys for various instruments in a class, and the professor asked him where the trumpet would be if the guitars were playing in concert E. Miles replied, "In the f*cking case".

Hmmm, well it can be argued that the fallout from Miles' bad behaviour has nearly all been erased, and surely will be when all who suffered it have passed on, which will be soon enough. But the Music lives on. I'm not condoning bad behaviour by artists, nor wishing to make excuses for it, but often it appears some artists are looking to create works "for the ages" and will try to manipulate the world around them to that end.

No doubt there were thousands of people over decades that were offended by Miles, but there will be millions over centuries that will continue to be entertained by him. Just sayin'... (as if this kinda thing hasn't been discussed enough! haha... )

[eh6794-2.0]

No doubt there were thousands of people over decades that were offended by Miles, but there will be millions over centuries that will continue to be entertained by him. Just sayin'... (as if this kinda thing hasn't been discussed enough! haha... )

"Hey man, I'm just here for the music." eh6794-2.0, February 23, 2023
"Hey, I heard Abe Lincoln was a di*k too." eh6794-2.0, February, 23, 2023

You can use either of my quotes any time you want!!!

[Litterick]

No doubt there were thousands of people over decades that were offended by Miles, but there will be millions over centuries that will continue to be entertained by him.

I would not count on it. I think it more likely that he and many others will fade into obscurity. How many jazz greats have any public standing today?

[docsteve]

I would not count on it. I think it more likely that he and many others will fade into obscurity. How many jazz greats have any public standing today?

Actually, Ted Gioia posted his estimate today: 80 years.

How Long Does Pop Culture Stardom Last? - by Ted Gioia

(I know he's not actually mentioning Miles, but the argument stays the same.)

[Litterick]

Gioia's argument relies on n-grams, so it is entirely literary. But it is interesting to see that printed mentions of Louis Armstrong peaked in 2000, but since fell rapidly to the level of fame he enjoyed in the mid-1980s.

[frankhond]

I don't hear this problem with horn or piano players, I only hear it from guitarists.

Apparently you haven’t tried some of the piano players I’ve played with :-D

[frankhond]

I'm sorry but knowing this forum's demographic

Very interesting, what is this forum’s demographic exactly? And how does one go about finding it out?

[lawson-stone]

Kid Ramos is the real deal! But East Bay Grease is a term from Tower of Power. It ain’t jazz, but they swing so hard they move the earth. Wrap this around your ears and if there’s an ounce of swing in you, it’ll bubble to the surface like hot lava in a volcano:

I’ve played about 2000 weddings etc over the last 60 years. Some of that music is so boring that you have to make it swing to stay awake. Even Mozart, Bach and Scarlatti can swing. It’s not genre-dependent and it doesn’t mean that everything has to sound like Benny Goodman. It is what it is.

This grooves like crazy, but is the groove what we'd really call "swing?" Just speaking for myself, no. Now it is about the best groove I've heard in ages, not slighting them at all. I wish I had that same locked-in groove. But to my bones, it doesn't swing. Great music, though. It doesn't have to swing to groove, but if it doesn't groove, likely it doesn't swing.

[eh6794-2.0]

This grooves like crazy, but is the groove what we'd really call "swing?" Just speaking for myself, no. Now it is about the best groove I've heard in ages, not slighting them at all. I wish I had that same locked-in groove. But to my bones, it doesn't swing. Great music, though. It doesn't have to swing to groove, but if it doesn't groove, likely it doesn't swing.

Swing is not necessarily a shuffle like we heard from Kid Ramos in a previous video.

[docsteve]

This grooves like crazy, but is the groove what we'd really call "swing?" Just speaking for myself, no. Now it is about the best groove I've heard in ages, not slighting them at all. I wish I had that same locked-in groove. But to my bones, it doesn't swing. Great music, though. It doesn't have to swing to groove, but if it doesn't groove, likely it doesn't swing.

Good point.

Swing is a certain time feel, and goes with a certain kind of music.

Groove is something that all sorts of music can have regardless of origin of period.

So maybe we should differentiate between the 2.

A piece can groove, but not swing.

I don’t think a piece can swing but not groove, though.


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[nevershouldhavesoldit]

It doesn't have to swing to groove, but if it doesn't groove, likely it doesn't swing.

I think we’re down to semantics here. Swing music is Benny Goodman, but music that swings can be anything. The Jazz in America glossary defines swing this way:

"when an individual player or ensemble performs in such a rhythmically coordinated way as to command a visceral response from the listener (to cause feet to tap and heads to nod); an irresistible gravitational buoyancy that defies mere verbal definition."

That’s a little snooty for me, but it’s true - music swings when it’s moving with enough force to take you along. Time signature, style, tempo etc don’t matter. The beat doesn’t have to be syncopated. Even a shuffle doesn’t swing unless whoever’s playing it does.

Most of the discussions and definitions of swing I see include equating it with being in a groove, in the pocket, etc. It’s how you play, what you play, how tight the band is, and so much more. But it doesn’t have to be “swing music” to swing. Fats Waller just said something like “if you have to ask, you’ll never know”.

[ragman1]

^ That's the one :-)

[eh6794-2.0]

Good point.

Swing is a certain time feel, and goes with a certain kind of music.

Groove is something that all sorts of music can have regardless of origin of period.

So maybe we should differentiate between the 2.

A piece can groove, but not swing.

I don’t think a piece can swing but not groove, though.


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I think you brought up a good point. I believe when someone like Miles would say, "swing," I think he meant swing/soul/groove/etc. When I say swing, that's what I mean.

Kid Ramos plays great swing music, and Chet Baker would swing even in his most soul crushing slow ballads (sorry for the "soul crushing," but some of his songs brought you really low, even though they are great tunes).

[Christian Miller]

Swing feel in jazz doesn’t necessarily mean swing music ie Benny Goodman. I think most musicians understand the distinction.

That said a historical survey of the evolution in swing feel from 1920ish to present perhaps illustrates as well as anything that it doesn’t have to be a drum set going spang-a-lang and walking bass to swing.

[Reg]

I think I can make anything swing, I know, not everything and I'm just an average player. I mean I can make any swing feel or tune latin or brazilian. It's a simple mechanical process. It's just not that difficult. It's like learning how to play a chord or arp... you can just try and eventually get through trial and error or you can learn the mechanics, the technical or theoretical BS and get there ... they both work.

The difficulties seem to come from being able to repeat when the context is different. Drummers seem to have changed how they imply swing feels, at least from the early days... Another discussion...