The swing feel IS truly a feel

[pamosmusic]

I guess "swing" is defined as "whatever we happen to like best"

[Basshead]

I think Kurk has been using his delay trick for ever... Holdsworth made a swing album, cant remember the name now.

[Reg]

I tend to believe the swing and feel thing is pretty organized.

[GuyBoden]

There is no upbeat in laidback Swing.

Getting that laidback feel

"If we lay back the down beat, that is called dragging. But, if we lay the upbeat material very deep in the beat, that creates the Laidback feel."

"If the downbeat is predominately long, and the inbetween eighth note is laidback very late in the beat, then nothing is happening in the traditional "upbeat" space (The classic Music Theory upbeat). In fact, there is no such thing as an upbeat in swing rhythm."

Quote from Ray Smith video

Edit: "Yes, there are many eight notes written on the upbeat, but the are not played on the upbeat in actuality."

[Bob_Ross]

"If we lay back the down beat, that is called dragging. But, if we lay the upbeat material very deep in the beat, that creates the Laidback feel."

A trumpet player I worked with in a society orchestra 35 years ago told me that exact statement...although, in much less polite terms.

[GuyBoden]

A trumpet player I worked with in a society orchestra 35 years ago told me that exact statement...although, in much less polite terms.

"Where do I play those eighth notes that are written as 'Upbeats', I play them almost on the next downbeat."

I think what Ray Smith is saying in the video is that when creating a laidback swing feel you need to feel the convectional 'Upbeat' as an almost 'Downbeat' or nearly a 'Downbeat'.

[Christian Miller]

In European music the upbeat is not usually accented (for instance when phrasing Bach we emphasise the down beat) but in jazz there is more equality between the upbeat and the downbeat

For those of us who don’t grow up in very rhythmically oriented musical cultures we normally need to learn to place the emphasis on the so called upbeat.

Anyway that’s good advice re swing. It’s hard to place the “and” of four too late, but very easy to place it too early

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Reg]

Hey Guy... yea that is how many players approach ... swing feels. It really helps to become aware and work on...
Swing triplet feels as compared to swing straight eight feels..... they are different.

As one develops... better technique, you'll fine that there are differences between the gaps or spaces between the accented attacks.

I'm just an average pro and work with different rhythm sections... sub for different ensembles etc... Not that difficult to know what... "feel" is wanted.

Once one gets the different styles of swing together... you then start developing longer patterns, 2 bars, 4 etc.

That is when feel ... really begin to groove or lock in.

[Stevebol]

What do you think? does this tune and performance proper swing to you? no edits, no cliks, no loops... just internal clock, 5/4 beat and lets go!
What I mean by this is 2 things, first one, very important to develop internal clock, to me was harder to record with no loops on cans or a percu player but we all should be able to do that and second thing is that swing by yourself playing solo is one thing, really hard and important bu when you play with a good drummer be able to lock in the groove...pocket... with him/her is the holy grail IMO. Considering that, Wes swing has nothing to do with Scofield or Hall, Parker has nothing to do with Peterson...etc...right?

I'm a blues player for the most part but I stumbled upon the Charlie Christian Minton's recordings at a Salvation Army in my mid teens.
I'm pretty sure that's swing. I comped and picked out lines as best I could. It's a vibe. Like a heart beat.

[Stevebol]

I'm going to leave before I get mad at theory.

[Basshead]

Thanks Steve, glad you liked it, Im a jazz afficionado from Spain, dont take me seriously but I think the best and only way to get ¨that swing feel¨is to copy that sound, as Hal Galper used to say, copy the phrasing from your fav players but if you wanna go the other way, and I like this way, I guess I got some EU academic bias...lets talk about Mike Longo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_n6fEyRfOQ

[Basshead]

Talking with Gemini about Longo method...

The following practice routine is designed to implement Mike Longo’s core principles in a single four-hour session. This program utilizes Longo’s 15-minute block system, which emphasizes consistency and the long-term manifestation of results.16
Hour 1: The Rhythmic Foundation (Drumming and Pulse)

The first hour is dedicated to the "African Drum Exercises" and the internalization of the pulse. This must be done without a metronome to foster an internal sense of time.9

1. Fundamental Pulse (15 min):

• Sit with a djembe or tap your hands on your legs.10
  
• Tap even eighth notes to establish a steady pulse.10
  
• Transition to a 12/8 hemiola: "Da-da Dum-dum Da-da Da-da-da Da-da-da".5
  
• Feel the weight of the "dum" hits and the crispness of the "da" hits.5

1. Polyrhythmic Counting (15 min):

• While maintaining the 12/8 hemiola on the drum, count "1-2-3" (3/4) against it.5
  
• Transition to counting "1-2-3-4" (4/4) and then "1-2-3-4-5" (5/4).5
  
• The goal is to feel the counter-rhythm visceral in your body until "broad smiles" appear.5

1. Two Against Three / Three Against Four (15 min):

• Tap 2 in one hand and 3 in the other. Vary saying "1, 2" and then "1, 2, 3" to feel the relationship.10
  
• Move to tapping 3 against 4. This cross-rhythm is essential for the "swing" feel.10

1. The "Five" Rhythm and Dizzy's Mystery (15 min):

• Vocalize the "Five" rhythm using "Bank bang" sounds.1
  
• Try to reproduce the complex rhythmic figure Dizzy Gillespie once handed to Longo on a piece of paper—a pattern that took him decades to master.1 Focus on the "timbre" of the hits.1

Hour 2: Melodic Activators and Technical Mastery

In the second hour, the musician transfers the rhythmic energy from the drum to their primary instrument.5

1. Melodic Activators (15 min):

• Play a simple motif (3-5 notes) on your instrument.5
  
• Apply the 12/8 hemiola rhythm to this motif.5
  
• Improvise over a ii-V vamp using only this rhythmic motif. Focus on the "touch" and "tone" of each note.5

1. Top-Down Scale Practice (15 min):

• Practice a major scale, but start on every degree (modes) starting from the top note down.15
  
• Focus on the "voice leading" between the scales.15

1. Rhythmic Scale Variations (15 min):

• Play scales starting on different beats (e.g., start on the "&" of 1, then the "&" of 2).10
  
• Incorporate an "odd number of half-steps" to ensure the scale resolves on a downbeat.10 This builds the "bebop scale" logic through rhythmic necessity rather than just theory.14

1. Quarter and Half-Note Triplets (15 min):

• Practice playing quarter-note triplets (6 against 4) across the entire range of the instrument.5
  
• For guitarists or pianists: Divide the instrument into regions (bass vs. treble) and play half-note triplets between the two regions.5

Hour 3: Repertoire and The "Place"

The third hour focuses on applying these concepts to the standard jazz repertoire.16

1. Soloing on Rhythm Changes (15 min):

• Play "Rhythm Changes" in Bb. After each chorus, modulate up a half-step.16
  
• Continue until you have gone through all 12 keys.16
  
• Focus on using "pushes" to anticipate the new key as you modulate.14

1. Blues Changes Modulation (15 min):

• Apply the same 12-key modulation method to the 12-bar blues.16
  
• Use the "Rhythmic Solfeggio" syllables ("a 1, a 2") to guide your phrasing.12

1. Old Tune / New Tune (30 min):

• Spend 15 minutes on a tune you already know, focusing on achieving a deep "swing" and "touch".16
  
• Spend 15 minutes on a new tune, analyzing its "harmonic melody" and voice leading from the top down.15

Hour 4: Investigation and Performance Technique

The final hour is for deep analysis and simulating the live performance environment.16

1. Investigation and Analysis (30 min):

• Work out functional reharmonizations for a standard.16
  
• Practice pre-conceived II/V patterns that utilize the rhythmic "connectors" discussed earlier.14
  
• Analyze a recorded solo, identifying the "half-note melody" that underpins the fast eighth-note lines.13

1. Performance Technique (30 min):

• Play as if you are on a gig or in a concert setting.16
  
• The goal is to reach "That Place"—the stream of consciousness where the drumming exercises and solfeggio disappear into pure musical expression.5
  
• Identify any "performance weaknesses" (e.g., losing the pulse during a difficult modulation) to address in future "Investigation" blocks.
  

[Reg]

Yea good post...

There is a difference between.... Jazz swing and western swing.

You want to get the right "FEEL". play and sound like Jazz swing...

Work on simple exercise...

One bar of 4/4.... with "8" eight notes.

First play it legitimately, exactly as written. "straight time"

Then with a "Jazz Feel", which is accomplished by.... playing all the notes that fall on the second half of a quarter note... ON THE THIRD EIGHTH OF A TRIPLET.


You would also play a bar of four... Dotted 8th and a 16th notes the same way.

[Stevebol]

[Stevebol]

[Reg]

Man I remember that ...NY gangster rap ..thanks

[Stevebol]

Man I remember that ...NY gangster rap ..thanks

I'm not proud of it but I was in San Diego's first 'gangster rap' group in 1985. It was an army psy op. The whole thing.

[Reg]

Be Proud...

I gigged and worked with a few R&B bands in the late 60's and 70's... only simi white dude sometimes.

[Stevebol]

Be Proud...

I gigged and worked with a few R&B bands in the late 60's and 70's... only simi white dude sometimes.

Like Little Richard said, you don't have to buy it.

[Stevebol]

Be Proud...

I gigged and worked with a few R&B bands in the late 60's and 70's... only simi white dude sometimes.

I have a good shrink. The bot is free. I guess the band I was in 40 years ago has a cult following.
I'm from Buffalo, man. The City of no Illusions.

[PMB]

Coming back to Ray Smith's comments about the upbeat being almost non-existent, I hear that in the mid-tempo swing feel of both Wynton Kelly and Cannonball Adderley (who worked together regularly). Consecutive eighth notes are closer to a dotted eighth/sixteenth-note placement or even more pronounced in their ratio where the sixteenth basically disappears and moves closer, as Ray suggests, to a grace note. Notably, those same players tend to accent and slur or tongue that sixteenth or grace note into the next beat to keep forward motion.

I had a huge revelation around this topic years ago when transcribing - not instrumental solos but how leading African-American jazz and blues singers deliver text from a rhythmic and dynamic point of view. My take was that African-American swing is, as you'd expect, derived from speech patterns.

Consider this famous line that opens a William Wordsworth poem:

"I wandered lonely as a cloud"

When uttered by speakers of European descent, the dynamic accents and rhythmic delineations often follow an iambic tetrameter pattern. Short syllables and words are mostly defined as upbeats followed by an accented downbeat. This lends a kind of sing-song nursery rhyme feel to the line.

On the other hand, an African-American would often dissolve those short syllables and words into or immediately before downbeats with the dynamic accent also transferred to these smaller units. Importantly, there's usually a greater presence of triplet subdivision and tying across beats.

Here's an approximation of what I'm talking about:

[Christian Miller]

Talking with Gemini about Longo method...

The following practice routine is designed to implement Mike Longo’s core principles in a single four-hour session. This program utilizes Longo’s 15-minute block system, which emphasizes consistency and the long-term manifestation of results.16
Hour 1: The Rhythmic Foundation (Drumming and Pulse)

The first hour is dedicated to the "African Drum Exercises" and the internalization of the pulse. This must be done without a metronome to foster an internal sense of time.9

1. Fundamental Pulse (15 min):

• Sit with a djembe or tap your hands on your legs.10
• Tap even eighth notes to establish a steady pulse.10
• Transition to a 12/8 hemiola: "Da-da Dum-dum Da-da Da-da-da Da-da-da".5
• Feel the weight of the "dum" hits and the crispness of the "da" hits.5

1. Polyrhythmic Counting (15 min):

• While maintaining the 12/8 hemiola on the drum, count "1-2-3" (3/4) against it.5
• Transition to counting "1-2-3-4" (4/4) and then "1-2-3-4-5" (5/4).5
• The goal is to feel the counter-rhythm visceral in your body until "broad smiles" appear.5

1. Two Against Three / Three Against Four (15 min):

• Tap 2 in one hand and 3 in the other. Vary saying "1, 2" and then "1, 2, 3" to feel the relationship.10
• Move to tapping 3 against 4. This cross-rhythm is essential for the "swing" feel.10

1. The "Five" Rhythm and Dizzy's Mystery (15 min):

• Vocalize the "Five" rhythm using "Bank bang" sounds.1
• Try to reproduce the complex rhythmic figure Dizzy Gillespie once handed to Longo on a piece of paper—a pattern that took him decades to master.1 Focus on the "timbre" of the hits.1

Hour 2: Melodic Activators and Technical Mastery

In the second hour, the musician transfers the rhythmic energy from the drum to their primary instrument.5

1. Melodic Activators (15 min):

• Play a simple motif (3-5 notes) on your instrument.5
• Apply the 12/8 hemiola rhythm to this motif.5
• Improvise over a ii-V vamp using only this rhythmic motif. Focus on the "touch" and "tone" of each note.5

1. Top-Down Scale Practice (15 min):

• Practice a major scale, but start on every degree (modes) starting from the top note down.15
• Focus on the "voice leading" between the scales.15

1. Rhythmic Scale Variations (15 min):

• Play scales starting on different beats (e.g., start on the "&" of 1, then the "&" of 2).10
• Incorporate an "odd number of half-steps" to ensure the scale resolves on a downbeat.10 This builds the "bebop scale" logic through rhythmic necessity rather than just theory.14

1. Quarter and Half-Note Triplets (15 min):

• Practice playing quarter-note triplets (6 against 4) across the entire range of the instrument.5
• For guitarists or pianists: Divide the instrument into regions (bass vs. treble) and play half-note triplets between the two regions.5

Hour 3: Repertoire and The "Place"

The third hour focuses on applying these concepts to the standard jazz repertoire.16

1. Soloing on Rhythm Changes (15 min):

• Play "Rhythm Changes" in Bb. After each chorus, modulate up a half-step.16
• Continue until you have gone through all 12 keys.16
• Focus on using "pushes" to anticipate the new key as you modulate.14

1. Blues Changes Modulation (15 min):

• Apply the same 12-key modulation method to the 12-bar blues.16
• Use the "Rhythmic Solfeggio" syllables ("a 1, a 2") to guide your phrasing.12

1. Old Tune / New Tune (30 min):

• Spend 15 minutes on a tune you already know, focusing on achieving a deep "swing" and "touch".16
• Spend 15 minutes on a new tune, analyzing its "harmonic melody" and voice leading from the top down.15

Hour 4: Investigation and Performance Technique

The final hour is for deep analysis and simulating the live performance environment.16

1. Investigation and Analysis (30 min):

• Work out functional reharmonizations for a standard.16
• Practice pre-conceived II/V patterns that utilize the rhythmic "connectors" discussed earlier.14
• Analyze a recorded solo, identifying the "half-note melody" that underpins the fast eighth-note lines.13

1. Performance Technique (30 min):

• Play as if you are on a gig or in a concert setting.16
• The goal is to reach "That Place"—the stream of consciousness where the drumming exercises and solfeggio disappear into pure musical expression.5
• Identify any "performance weaknesses" (e.g., losing the pulse during a difficult modulation) to address in future "Investigation" blocks.

I don't understand why people feel the need to post this sort of stuff. We do actually know how to prompt a chatbot ourselves, but thanks for at least labelling it as such.

I have Longo's DVD's etc. I remember finding them useful.

[Basshead]

Ignorants with no swing have opinions, I think Longo and Hal were right...

[Stevebol]

Be Proud...

I gigged and worked with a few R&B bands in the late 60's and 70's... only simi white dude sometimes.

Of what? San Diego hasn't been a military town since the 1980's but it has it's secrets. Pride comes before the fall. Is it pride to rather perish than publish?

[GuyBoden]

I think Longo and Hal were right...