Metronome Settings - "Putting" the metronome on different beats

[christianm77]

Interesting. Sounds like work that could be kind of draining, though.

You have to have so much energy on tap.

[JakeAcci]

You have to have so much energy on tap.

At the same time, there is a certain flow to the work.

[christianm77]

also, the self assessment thing, it's also just a BS question. Again, I respect you and this is a fun conversation, but it's like, we might as well ask each other

1. Do you think you are a good player

2. Do you think your music sounds good

3. Do you think you swing

4. Do you think your time feel sounds good

These are dumb questions. A person can't really answer them because people are just generally terrible at this kind of self assessment. There are all sorts of cognitive biases at play with that stuff, and also: Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

No such thing as a stupid question, on the other hand?

1. Do you think you are a good player

I'm better than Barry Shitpeas down the street, so that's a start.

2. Do you think your music sounds good

My mum says she likes it.

3. Do you think you swing

The question I asked was, "do you think you can swing." Not everyone swings all the time. Even some of Wes's recordings are less swinging than others.

4. Do you think your time feel sounds good

As for 3. Even a bad ass Son band in Old Havana might sound a bit ropey until they all lock in after a couple of bars.

[JakeAcci]

2. Do you think your music sounds good

My mum says she likes it.

Her bias is probably worse than yours!

[christianm77]

Re; the Dunning Kruger thing, I feel that the kind of assessment master musicians are likely to make are along the lines of that gig flowed well/there was a good vibe etc. Interior experiences are worthwhile IMO because, well, you have to enjoy what you do. The more it can be enjoyable the better.

I also happen to think there is a connection with swinging etc, but I would also be prepared to admit there is in fact no correlation between the two at all.

But yes, many musicians are almost hilariously modest in their assessments of their own playing and it's really not a put on.

[JakeAcci]

Re; the Dunning Kruger thing, I feel that the kind of assessment master musicians are likely to make are along the lines of that gig flowed well/there was a good vibe etc. Interior experiences are worthwhile IMO because, well, you have to enjoy what you do. The more it can be enjoyable the better.

I think it's safe to say that the energy felt while performing can have a limited connection to either A. how good the music sounded or B. the audience reaction. In my experience performing I feel comfortable with that assessment - times I felt amazing where the recording sounded lame and audience was unenthused/gave negative feedback, and the opposite, where I felt frustrated or bored and audience gave good feedback and recording sounded good later.

So I'm not sure how much of a measure that is.

Fred Hersch commented on how when he used to do gigs high they always felt better in the moment, but he'd listen the recording of the gig, at a later time, and realize it wasn't as 'happenin' as he felt in the moment. Obviously drugs alter our perception in a more literal way, but I think there's a lot of weight to the idea that how we feel during a gig might not be too relevant to how "good" it was. I just feel like I have too many anecdotes to support what I'm saying.

Regarding enjoyment, of course, it's important to enjoy stuff. It's great to enjoy playing, to enjoy practicing, to enjoy a discussion on a forum. But a player enjoying his own experience performing may have limited to connection to how good the music sounds, how well he's connecting with the audience, how much it's swinging, etc. Just like two blokes enjoying exchanging ideas doesn't mean they are actually learning anything or growing as people or musicians.

[christianm77]

Her bias is probably worse than yours!

My mum is actually a pretty harsh critic.

[JakeAcci]

My mum is actually a pretty harsh critic.

That must have been very hard for you. In my family, making a living at music was first just seen as a pipe dream.

Sorry, I have a problem...

[christianm77]

I think it's safe to say that the energy felt while performing can have a limited connection to either A. how good the music sounded or B. the audience reaction. In my experience performing I feel comfortable with that assessment - times I felt amazing where the recording sounded lame and audience was unenthused/gave negative feedback, and the opposite, where I felt frustrated or bored and audience gave good feedback and recording sounded good later.

So I'm not sure how much of a measure that is.

I think most of us have had this experience (those who record their gigs)

But - I generally know right away if I have played something rhythmically weak or out of time. My perception of this is much better than it was. That's kind of negative thing in a way.

When I am playing well - I feel a sort of disinterested daydreaming quality. Sometimes it feels really placid and kind of flat and my ego demands that 'do something.' Then I listen back and I can hear exactly the point I 'wake up.'

Fred Hersch commented on how when he used to do gigs high they always felt better in the moment, but he'd listen the recording of the gig, at a later time, and realize it wasn't as 'happenin' as he felt in the moment. Obviously drugs alter our perception in a more literal way, but I think there's a lot of weight to the idea that how we feel during a gig might not be too relevant to how "good" it was. I just feel like I have too many anecdotes to support what I'm saying.

I think you actually have to kind of detach yourself from the performance a bit. Easier said than done.

Regarding enjoyment, of course, it's important to enjoy stuff. It's great to enjoy playing, to enjoy practicing, to enjoy a discussion on a forum. But a player enjoying his own experience performing may have limited to connection to how good the music sounds, how well he's connecting with the audience, how much it's swinging, etc. Just like two blokes enjoying exchanging ideas doesn't mean they are actually learning anything or growing as people or musicians.

You just have to appreciate the distinction between swinging and being swung. When I listen to Wes, he swings I am swung.

Trying to swing is the first mistake, getting excited by the rhythm is another. But you also have to have a deep intuitive understanding of the different rhythms that make up swing feel. I actually think swing is one of those things it is possible to break down and study, the same thing we might break down a symphonic movement in terms of form and harmony.

Now that don't mean that Beethoven or Wes were aware of what they were doing in the moment, but there's an element of reverse engineering their craft to get that .... feeling.

I'm not pretending I have any answers BTW or much in the way of consistency, merely questions.

[JakeAcci]

I actually think swing is one of those things it is possible to break down and study, the same thing we might break down a symphonic movement in terms of form and harmony.

Now that don't mean that Beethoven or Wes were aware of what they were doing in the moment, but there's an element of reverse engineering their craft to get that .... feeling.

Yeah I definitely agree with this. I think a variety of activities and approaches are helpful, I think a few days ago I made a post with some metronome exercises that can sometimes help with time keeping and rhythmic awareness, which I think is related to swing. It took me a second to find it, but here's the link: Metronome Settings - Putting the metronome on different beats