Feeling the off beat as the new quarter note

[Irez87]

Mike Longo and Barry Harris both talk about the idea of feeling the off beat as the new quarter note. Here's something to try, make the quarter note the new off beat. Get a drum machine thingy or something that will just click the downbeat and try it. I got some interesting comping rhythms out of it. Off to the bongo bongo bongos

[dingusmingus]

Sorry, I'm not following. I think I have a terminology problem. I think of "offbeat" as the 2 and the 4 (as opposed to the down beats of 1 and 3). Is that what you mean?

[MarkRhodes]

I think he means the "and" of each beat, the & of 1, the & of 2, and so on. (If we're talking quarter notes, four to the measure would be the norm for jazz.) Some people call this the "up beat" (as opposed to the down beat), which would be clearer, I think.

Just my guess.

[Irez87]

Yeah, the "and's"

[MarkRhodes]

Dizzy once said 'the more upbeats in the music, the more it swings.'

Here's a good way for guitarists to hear it, even though it's not jazz. Notice the rhythmic accents on the upbeat.

[dingusmingus]

Got it, thanks for the clarification. I've done some practice with the metronome as the "and" or even as every other "and (two beats a measure). It's a workout!

I think I may have to break down and get that Mike Longo video some day.

[eh6794]

Dizzy once said 'the more upbeats in the music, the more it swings.'

Here's a good way for guitarists to hear it, even though it's not jazz. Notice the rhythmic accents on the upbeat.

I transitioned from rock, to shuffle/swing due to this song. Back in the 90's I remember reading magazines that discussed how amazing it was to play bassline and horn-stabs (that's how it was described) at the same time. I was truly amazed.

Then I heard Joe Pass, who did not mute the strings and actually played chords on the AND beats; and Pass did it a decade before SRV! I don't know the history very well, but I am sure Pass hiself wasn't the first.

That made me wonder if younger guitarists were to have more exposure to jazz guitarists, would more of them choose jazz instead of rock?

Sorry to side-track the thread haha

[Irez87]

Been loving me that upbeat feel of HepCat

[destinytot]

Dizzy was a Time Lord.

Part of my (mis-spent) youth: Behind the Moonbeam (from the '75 Pablo album Bahiana)
Dizzy Gillespie - trumpet
Roger Glenn - flute, bass flute, vibraphone
Al Gafa, Michael Howell - guitar
Earl May - bass
Mickey Roker - drums
Paulinho Da Costa - percussion

[fep]

Got it, thanks for the clarification. I've done some practice with the metronome as the "and" or even as every other "and (two beats a measure). It's a workout!

I think I may have to break down and get that Mike Longo video some day.

This drummer uses the metronome as the last 16th note of a beat, on the 'ah' if you well. You could also have it be on the upbeat of a swing 1/8th note. If you do it well, it will 'groove'. You could also have it be on the upbeat of a swing 1/8th note. Great exercise.

[Hep To The Jive]

Been loving me that upbeat feel of HepCat

Yea mon! The original Jamaican ska is where it's at if you dig upbeats. As told by Ernest Ranglin, who's great one of a kind jazz guitarist btw., Jamaican musicians stole the upbeats from the American shuffle, then straighten them up and emphasized even more. Thus ska was born. I still love it!

[christianm77]

Mike Longo and Barry Harris both talk about the idea of feeling the off beat as the new quarter note. Here's something to try, make the quarter note the new off beat. Get a drum machine thingy or something that will just click the downbeat and try it. I got some interesting comping rhythms out of it. Off to the bongo bongo bongos

Good point - I have't done a huge amount of this, but I will be sure to do so. I have done a lot of practice with the metronome on the and, but I haven't gone as far as feeling the and as the new beat.

Really feeling the half note or quarter note triplet as a the new quarter has a distinct feeling as well, and there is a 'night and day' difference between feeling it that way and just playing it or clapping it.

I've been working on some of the M-Base exercises and that's similar - you have to feel the two rhythms together. If you go by reading the rhythms then you will end up within the hierarchy of one rhythmic system (4/4 say if you doing 3 against 4 and it is written in 4) - there are different ways of breaking this down, but when you really feel the two meters together and independently it's a magical feeling.

Something I'm just starting to appreciate.

Moving between the two 4/4's on the beat and on the up beat seems to me to be a distinguishing musical feature of bebop - if not the distinguishing musical feature. Swing guys stayed in one place....

EDIT: also telling that the Mike Longo way of counting gets you to count anticipations as if they are the beat.... cf his Sight Reading Rhythms Books.

[Irez87]

Just lent my sax player friend my Vol. 2 of Rhythmic Nature of Jazz. I told him the secret isn't in the triplet or the 6/8. The secret is in hearing the tones of the drum and the accents when you apply the exercise. Ordered his Drum Practice CD a couple of days a go. I could actually study with him... but my school is starting up again and I have to re-assume the role of the teacher myself. Do you have a copy of Vol. 3?

[christianm77]

Just lent my sax player friend my Vol. 2 of Rhythmic Nature of Jazz. I told him the secret isn't in the triplet or the 6/8. The secret is in hearing the tones of the drum and the accents when you apply the exercise. Ordered his Drum Practice CD a couple of days a go. I could actually study with him... but my school is starting up again and I have to re-assume the role of the teacher myself. Do you have a copy of Vol. 3?

Yes Vol 3 is a download. TBH I haven't practiced any of the stuff on 3 for a while. I will go back to it now I feel I've got a better grip on the last two exercises of Vol 2.

Playing bebop heads on the drum is an art form in itself. Getting the tones of the drum right is something I should probably pay more attention to.

These exercises are superficially simple but contain a lot of depth.

[Irez87]

I've been drumming the exercise in Vol. 2 on my chest and belly to get the different tones when I am away from my bongos. People think you are nuts for doing it on the subways, but it's NYC (there's a lot weirder things happenin down there). Really helping to hear how Cannonball conceives time.

[christianm77]

I've been drumming the exercise in Vol. 2 on my chest and belly to get the different tones when I am away from my bongos. People think you are nuts for doing it on the subways, but it's NYC (there's a lot weirder things happenin down there). Really helping to hear how Cannonball conceives time.

I used to do weird stuff like that on the tube in London haha. Now I am driving a car to gigs though.... Good for listening to music, less so for practicing....

[Irez87]

Not if you got some Bruce Arnold mp3s... [Pulls open trench coat in dark alley and glares manically at the merchandise in his endless coat pockets]

[jasonc]

Would you guys tell me a bit more about the Longo stuff? I'm desperately trying to get my time together. I work with a metronome a lot and feel like I lock in fine but when I'm playing with a group I'm constantly second guessing my time. Probably has a lot to do with just trusting myself but...

[Irez87]

I study with Bruce Arnold so I am partial to his stuff. Here's what I used to internalize time (and still use):

Time Studies Archives - Muse EEKMuse EEK

I use the following:

The Big Metronome -- clicks every measure, two measures, four measures, OR eight measures with NO clicks in between. Don't count, hear the space.

Doing Time with 32 bars Vol. 1 (clicks every two measures) or Vol. 2 (clicks every four measures)

MetroDrone (same as above, but the click is replaced by a drone for any desired note)

Once again, the whole concept is NOT to COUNT. But rather, to hear the space in between and memorize how long that space it. It's hard work (Keeps you honest) but will really help you play with anyone, even those really modern drummers who don't give the regular cues and play those Tony Williams poly rhythms on the ride cymbal. Because you've internalized the sound of a measure, two measures, four, etc, that won't throw you off. It will REALLY help you develop your lines and comping as well. But hell, what do I know...

[christianm77]

Not if you got some Bruce Arnold mp3s... [Pulls open trench coat in dark alley and glares manically at the merchandise in his endless coat pockets]

Haha the Bruce Arnold site is exactly like that. I have got some his ear training stuff.

[Irez87]

here is a clip of me playing with 2 measure clicks at 200bpm:

There are still hiccups here and there, but my time is much better than before because I don't count the quarter notes... Got into a petty argument with a Youtube drummer over this... shesh.

[Irez87]

Another idea, beat boxing. Weird idea but hear me out. When I listen to recordings, I will sing the drum part with different syllables for the different parts of the drum. It helps me understand where the band is placing the accents and pulse. For instance, Cannonball Adderley's own group feels swing much differently than Miles Davis second Quintet. Gets new information into your ear. If you can sing it or vocalize it, it is easier to access in your playing.

[Irez87]

By the way, Damn you Jason... I want one of your guitars. WOW! Beautiful work!

[christianm77]

Would you guys tell me a bit more about the Longo stuff? I'm desperately trying to get my time together. I work with a metronome a lot and feel like I lock in fine but when I'm playing with a group I'm constantly second guessing my time. Probably has a lot to do with just trusting myself but...

Time, eh? Why practice anything else? Well I suppose we need to make some note choices from time to time, and it's good to be able to sight read...

I don't want to divulge too much info about the Mike Longo stuff TBH because he kind of keeps it under wraps. Longo's concept is built around experiential learning of polymetric time concept. There are other educators who discuss this, but few who have a worked out system. Longo's DVD's have been really helpful (I think) - I have noticed a qualitative difference in my time feeling over the past couple of years. I think. Certainly not a short cut in anyway, although I did find that the first time I practiced the stuff on DVD 2 it completely blew my mind.

I think it's worth bearing in mind that time is not something you 'get together' but a limitless frontier of musical expression. Another thing I have realised is the importance of really listening to other musicians. Time/feel is corporate which is why it is never the same on your own with a metronome as it is with a band. Some great musicians play metronomically, others, less so. As Mike Longo points out many of the great jazz recordings speed up. (And Dave Cliff pointed out a lot of Wes's recordings slow down - does that mean Wes has bad time?)

I'm not sure if others would agree but one thing that has helped me enormously is letting go of my own egotistical worry about time/feel on gigs and really focussing on where the other players are while I play. I don't know if this helps my time, but it is a lot more fun.

Finally the other thing which I have been working on is a deceptively simple exercise of Lee Konitz - he says, practice tapping your foot in time and really synchronising with your foot this has the advantage of making your time feeling involve your whole body. You could also try stepping in time while playing. I have found this has helped me get into that 'space' or 'notch' I get into also using Mike's exercises.

In my experience, slow click exercises only confirm whether or not you are in the 'space' they can't get you there on their own - I always perfrom better at slow click stuff after I have run through my Longo war up for example - have you found this Irez87? sounds like you have practiced a lot of the same exercises.

Above all - look at rhythmic flexibility and awareness. Keep finding new ways to trip yourself up that are just the right side of impossible.

[Irez87]

You should talk to Dave Shneider about his unique bridges. He made me a bone ebony bridge where the tone screws screw right through the bone! Wild stuff and now my Eastman sings like an angel.