Articulating Swing vs Bebop

[ecj]

I've actually played with enough rock musicians in cover bands who display "protective" attitudes to know that there's no shortage of "curatorial" artists in those genres.

I don't disagree with your assessment about the difference being one of cumulative development of skills, though. That's my favorite thing about jazz and the Western classical tradition. Understanding what happened before deepens your understanding of what's happening now. That's not necessarily true in rock, pop, country, etc., except maybe in the field of studio production.

[Vladan]

You're both right. In rock protectiveness you'll find with bands playing in stylystic genres, while true club bands are cool with anything, they play any song in own style.

O, oohh, sounds familiar.
If I'd think over those two parts of above sentence .... who plays anything in own style.... what stylistic genre we discuss on this forum ...

So, difference in ingredients did not change the taste of a dish, mayo and ketchup (catsup, Mr. Burns) evened it out so awfully well.

[Stevebol]

Nice discussion. I think I'm learning that it's about intent whether something is trad, swing or something more contemporary especially if you have bandmates involved.

If it's a casual house jam, anything goes and your just having fun. If it's a club gig like the clip below, then the leader's intent might be to swing like your on 52nd street in the late 30s. And if your gonna sound like the freshly establish art jazz circa late 1940s on, then I guess your gonna flex your solo chops like never before while being a lot more open to rhythmic and melodic ideas. "Bebop" in the mid 20th century has fallen into that "classic" jazz category, but it established the push to get a player to stretch and keep stretching to make things more interesting in the music.

Piano player is definitely into Fats Waller rather than Monk, drummer is more on the lines of Gene Krupa (maybe more like Spike Jones) than Art Blakey and the guitarist (a local guy I know who is schooled in the history from Christian all the way up beyond Metheny) has dialed it down to playing in the feel and era that the others are going for.

I heard about a group of uni music professors that got a group together and did Django swing. If that's going to be a trend maybe it's good in the long. Be-bop musicians are the most versatile musicians around but when you suddenly decide to do dance music it could turn out to be a much bigger challenge than anticipated.
Maybe swing will become the new jazz establishment and be-bop will be set free. These jazz teachers could certainly stand for a little dance music attitude and young students would be free to learn bop the easy way. Be-bop is an art no doubt but so is dance music.

[Stevebol]

I'm going to name my swing band- The Too Dumb to Bop Swing Band

[Stevebol]

I better get a bass soon and see what's up with the sound. Standup players are in big demand and hard to find. Get going on doing the bass and guitar parts.

[ecj]

Stevebol. Dude. Tell us how you really feel.

[Stevebol]

Stevebol. Dude. Tell us how you really feel.

LOL. I was seeking attention. Seriously, swing is just dance music. If you're too dumb to bop-swing.

[Vladan]

I agree wih this "dance music" idea. Other people also brought same, or similar idea, here on forum, just wanted to announce I agree with it.

[goldrun77]

There's no Bird figure instantly to identify with the new sound and, at the same time, the two most important influences i.e. Lester Young and Coleman Hawkins were giants of the swing era.

[sunnysideup]

90 % of swing you can do with straight diatonic harmony

90 % of bebop you can't

bebop is actually a mind-boggingly simple extension of swing for a guitarist, in terms of fretboard visualisation, much simpler than the theory expressed in musical terms; in terms of technique it's not so mind-bogglingly simple ;-)

[Vladan]

The other day I watched a TV report about "Electro Swing" scene in Berlin. It's live swing soloist, or whole band, playing tunes over DJ Techno backing. They said it all came from London where sceene is rather big, for couple of years already. All interviewved attendees spoke exclusivelly about chlotes, makeup and dancing, though. Only the presenter was mentioning the music.

So, maybe not the oportunity to be praised for musical abillity, but certainly a niche to earn some money. I really think jazz musicians should grab it, no matter how small, and try expand on it, but in a clever way, without too much bitchin'. One day, who knows, maybe ...

I do not live in Berlin, so can't testify, but have a friend thee, who used to be heavilly into clubbing, so I'll ask him if ther's some truth in that presentation.

Sunnyside, You're from London? Ever heard of Electro Swing?

[sunnysideup]

Hi Vlad yes I'm from London, but that was a million light years ago. Where I live now they play traditional Asian country music on instruments that have no western names; in scales that have no western names; in rhythyms that have no western names; and the ladies ululate.

[Vladan]

@Sunnyside

Well, guys I work with the most (record them and sometimes play) play that way over here. They'd explain genre as
"Slow Miles with some Weather report, Sun Ra and Art Ensemble..., but in Indonesian style.
Once the leader (exceptional percussionist for others, but here he mostly plays piano and synth) ease up on ego and copyright parnoia, I'll post it here, or somewhere. Loads of hand made "junkyard" percussion, all inspired by Asia, and some Africa.

[Stevebol]

I like this stuff even though it's cheezy.

[Vladan]

This is one of the links:

electro-swing.com | The world's 1st ElectroSwing website !

[mr. beaumont]

Sounds like something I'd hear while buying a $300 pair of jeans.

[goldrun77]

I heard a replay of an interview on NPR with Pee Wee Moore, a bebop alto (I think) player from Raleigh who was a contemporary of Bird and Diz. He explained bebop as an invention to preserve the "African-Americanness" of jazz.

[Stevebol]

I like this discussion. This electro swing sounds cool and it's not like anyone is doing anything else with swing. Why not can it and put a sticker on it? It's better than nothing. There's a market for any music that has a steady bass drum like swing, rap, rock, country, etc...
I can see horn players getting into this. The whole thing is funny to me but there's no sense in being a hater. I wish them success.

[Stevebol]

Sounds like something I'd hear while buying a $300 pair of jeans.

Lol. That's the whole point.

[davelang]

re: Bop vs. Swing

This is a great book.

The Birth of Bebop: A Social and Musical History (Roth Family Foundation Music in America Book): Scott DeVeaux: 9780520216655: Amazon.com: Books

"DeVeaux places musicians within the context of their professional world, paying close attention to the challenges of making a living as well as of making good music. He shows that bebop was simultaneously an artistic movement, an ideological statement, and a commercial phenomenon."

[Vladan]

Sounds like something I'd hear while buying a $300 pair of jeans.

You've inspired me to do some dead horse beating here:
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/chit-...tml#post312000

[Stevebol]

The discussion of cliches in jazz spawned this thought in my head...maybe you guys can help me round out missing elements of my rambling here.

If I would like to play a specific style of guitar, at least to familiarize myself with the elements that create the sound or feel of that playing, what would I need to learn to get there and what techniques should I not concern myself with (techniques not typical of the style or the time)? Say, if I were to authenticate the sound of a 1930s swing player vs creating 1950-1960s playing style?

I might be partially answering this by saying I should listen to Eddie Lang, George Van Eps, Charlie Christian, Django, Freddie Green, don't forget Lester Young and Ben Webster and other horn players when it comes to ideas, etc. Learn the blues, learn arpeggios, learn 4-to-the-bar comps and VOILA! Swing guitar!

Now bebop playing I should be familiar with the above, plus, advanced chords (extensions, inversions) faster tempos, latin tempos, odd tempos, more spaces between rhythm instead of straight 4/4, even more scales based on advanced chord, then modes...then listen to Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessel, Grant Green, Kenny Burrell, Charlie Parker, Dizzy, Coltrane, Miles, Monk, Rollins on and on and on...

I'm not suggesting playing like a swing era guitarist is that simple. I WISH I can get there and sound like that. I would like to play like the bebop and beyond era guitarist, but that sounds daunting and then some, so maybe I should just get comfortable playing swing first. Am I making bop sound way more complicated than it is?

The missing element is picking up your guitar and producing a sound on it.

[sunnysideup]

GUYS (and Dames) there's a subtext to this.... kind of like the Elephant in the Room.... let me expound...

old jazz = 90 % black musicians pretending to be white - it was good for business 100 years ago: the "Devil's Music"

swing = 70/30, black middle class growing - see labour civil rights laws, USA has always been behind the rest of the "civilised" world in this respect

bebop = Black intellectuals - Charlie P, you know hundreds of others

postbop = Miles etc

Nowbop = lots of nice middle class white kids copying the cool old black licks, spending lots of mum's and dad's money doing it: just as well, as there's no money in being a jazz performer these days or in the next 50 years; now the cool young Blacks , who have always been the lifeblood of Jazz, are doing rap - did anyone notice ... zzzzz

[Stevebol]

GUYS (and Dames) there's a subtext to this.... kind of like the Elephant in the Room.... let me expound...

old jazz = 90 % black musicians pretending to be white - it was good for business 100 years ago: the "Devil's Music"

swing = 70/30, black middle class growing - see labour civil rights laws, USA has always been behind the rest of the "civilised" world in this respect

bebop = Black intellectuals - Charlie P, you know hundreds of others

postbop = Miles etc

Nowbop = lots of nice middle class white kids copying the cool old black licks, spending lots of mum's and dad's money doing it: just as well, as there's no money in being a jazz performer these days or in the next 50 years; now the cool young Blacks , who have always been the lifeblood of Jazz, are doing rap - did anyone notice ... zzzzz

I was pondering this stuff last night and reading about the history of the word 'swing'. I use it a lot. What trumps a lot of the history is the internet. Younger musicians will never know what it was like trying to learn music before the net. Now we can all find info on the finer points of whatever it is we're doing.
I thought Kenny Barron's comments about today's music lacking 'heart' were unfair at first but it true. Info is no longer a precious commodity so there's a lack of commitment in the sound of everything these days.

Edit;
Maybe that's a little harsh to say. The internet seems to be having a huge influence on music these days. I'll leave it at that.

[christianm77]

I play around 100+ gigs of swing music a year. It's good guitarists music, if a little solo-light in a large ensemble. Playing 4 to the bar rhythm is good for the soul I think!

I'm based in London. Yes I've heard of Electro-Swing. We often play alongside Electro-Swing DJ's as well as for dancers (Lindy-hop, Balboa, etc)

The scene here is huge. People love this kind of thing. The music does often take second fiddle to the dressing up etc, but I think we make a strong case. It often feels like we are playing this music for indie/rock band audiences.

Musically, I've been exploring the similarities and differences a lot - I love my bop. My swing style is based heavily on Django's but I try to avoid the 20 gypsy jazz djangobooks.com type licks that everyone plays here on the London scene - Django's solos are full of great phrases hardly anyone plays! I also study Lester Young and Charlie Christian primarily. My bop/modern style now feels less fully formed, so I'm keen to work on that as carefully as I've worked on my swing playing rather than simply 'doing my thing'..... On the other hand I'm keen to develop my own voice in swing playing and link the two together seamlessly rather than playing a 'style' - it's slowly coming on.

I feel learning more about the past has sharpened up my musicianship and suggests new directions.

Going back to the original post: I think the idea of following the chronology of jazz guitar as you learn is a strong one. I think be-bop makes a lot more sense when you understand how to play swing. I remember Dave Cliff saying something like that to me when I was starting - wish I'd listened.