1920s banjo/drum inspired playing

[brent.h]

Is there a name for this? Pre-swing?

Here's Molly Reeves. Her comping is quite varied throughout the tune. Check out those nice 'snare rolls' at 0:45.

This is Cafe Society Jazz Band from the UK. There's a cool banjo solo at 2:10. Are there guitar players that do this kind of thing?

I know Yuji Kamihigashi and Jonathan Stout have their own chord melody thing that's really sweet and guitaristic, but I'm specifically looking for other guitarists who have a lot more of that percussive banjo/drum influence.

Any recommendations?

Of late I've been listening to this to soak up as much banjo rhythm as possible:
The Blue Book of Storyville - YouTube

I want my melodies and comping to have this percussive, strummy, feel with the occasional injection of sextuplets or 32nd-notes.

[Hep To The Jive]

Yea learn it, what stops you? It"s the easiest thing in the world, don't need deep harmonic knowledge or theory, you can learn based on just these videos you posted, or look up pretty much any NOLA style bands. I picked up plectrum banjo and it didn't take much time to adjust to it. It's really a street style, all you need is the rhythmic feel and off you go, just a natural rhythm.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I do that

Keep your wrist loose

I like to a press roll thing on slow tunes


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[brent.h]

look up pretty much any NOLA style bands

Do you have any favourites?

I like to a press roll thing on slow tunes

Sextuplets or 32nds? Or do you go by feel?

[Palomorado]

As someone born in South Mississippi/New Orleans area I can say whole-heartedly:

FEEL

FEEL

FEEL

FEEL

FEEL

[sgosnell]

Josh Dunn plays both banjo and guitar in the trad style, with the High Society New Orleans Jazz Band, which has a steady gig at Birdland. In this situation he plays more banjo than guitar, but you can find YouTube videos where he's playing guitar. Howard Alden also plays trad banjo, and there are videos of him doing that on the tube.

[RLetson]

Dixieland rhythm is pretty straightforward--what I notice in the Cafe Society video is how little syncopation there is in the banjo part (at least until he solos)--in the absence of a drummer and piano, the banjo and bass establish the pulse, straight 4/4, with the banjo providing those end-of-phrase stabs. (Which are like short versions of the gypsy-jazz tremolo, which I'm pretty sure was imported from banjo technique.) Oddly enough I was reminded of Steve Jordan's rhythm playing on Buck Meets Ruby.

The "Eh La Bas" is, of course, way funkier.

[AllanAllen]

Louis Armstrong Eternity Band also has a banjo player on the Birdland live streams.

[Christian Miller]

Do you have any favourites?



Sextuplets or 32nds? Or do you go by feel?

Feel


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[Christian Miller]

Dixieland rhythm is pretty straightforward--what I notice in the Cafe Society video is how little syncopation there is in the banjo part (at least until he solos)--in the absence of a drummer and piano, the banjo and bass establish the pulse, straight 4/4, with the banjo providing those end-of-phrase stabs. (Which are like short versions of the gypsy-jazz tremolo, which I'm pretty sure was imported from banjo technique.) Oddly enough I was reminded of Steve Jordan's rhythm playing on Buck Meets Ruby.

The "Eh La Bas" is, of course, way funkier.

When the listen back to gigs I usually regret playing fills more than being rhythmically boring


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[Hep To The Jive]

Do you have any favourites?

not off the top of my head, but if I come across I'll share. I don't really go searching for it tbh, it's kinda learn it and forget it thing for me, I love the music, I play it when I need it but I'm not a scholar. I do want to improve on the chord melody style ala Jonathan Stout though, I work on that.

[brent.h]

So entertaining!

[brent.h]

Nick Rossi talks a bit about the banjo-guitar connection and the playing styles of John Trueheart, Bernard Addison, Morris White, and Al Casey.

[brent.h]

Amazing resources!

[brent.h]

Fascinating video on Danny Barker! Timestamps/Observations below.

01:35 - Danny's technique/philosophy
04:09 - Loudness and amplification
06:30 - Creole/Dance influence on New Orleans players
10:00 - Danny's strumming, string gauge
12:04 - Banjo & funk guitar
13:07 - [Performance] 'When You're Smiling'
18:07 - Danny's singing & playing style; turnarounds with biiidim
20:07 - Ensemble playing, prioritizing rhythm
21:18 - Banjo discussion
26:55 - Danny's Caribbean connection & Creole tunes

-----

28:42 to 29:01 - Tresillo based strums (accents on 1, 2&, 4)
29:03 to 29:07 - Hemiola based strums (accents on 1, 4, 3)

Here, Don Vappie talks about how these two rhythms are not so different from each other. My observation: the rests between the Tresillo accents (1 quarter note) are twice as long as the rests between the Hemiola accents (2 quarter notes).

29:16 - Tresillo rhythm (accents on 1, 2&, 4)
29:21 - Charleston rhythm (accents on 1, 2&)
29:25 - Calypso rhythm (accents on 2&, 4)

-----

31:51 - Creole songs
34:24 - Don Vappie talks Danny's tresillo & James P. Johnson's swing
35:40 - 1 & 3 pulse with 2 & 4 pulse
36:59 - bluegrass 2 & 4 vs Creole's 2 & 4
38:50 - [Performance] 'Salée Dame'
43:18 - Don Vappie plays a bit of 'La Ville Jacmel'
45:00 - Danny's voicings
46:06 - The melody
46:58 - Don Vappie's banjo style
50:28 - Promotional stuff
52:26 - Steve Masakowski meeting Danny
53:40 - Don Vappie's experience with Danny
56:10 - Danny's guitar

-----

see 3:47 for Danny Barker's solo

3:50 to 3:56 tresillo/clave based playing

3:57 to 4:02 more tresillo/clave based playing but he is playing all the rests so you actually hear that Scott Joplin, Maple Leaf ragtime rhythm! This is something I noticed banjo players do a lot (down-down-up rhythm to imply a dancey 3/8 polymetric feel)

4:06, 4:17 quarter note triplets

[Christian Miller]

Amazing resources!

Ah, Pat. I know him IRL, have played some gigs with him over the years.

He has some solid exercises on his channel. He’s really into the NOLA and Cuban stuff.


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[Christian Miller]

Fascinating video on Danny Barker! Timestamps/Observations below.

01:35 - Danny's technique/philosophy
04:09 - Loudness and amplification
06:30 - Creole/Dance influence on New Orleans players
10:00 - Danny's strumming, string gauge
12:04 - Banjo & funk guitar
13:07 - [Performance] 'When You're Smiling'
18:07 - Danny's singing & playing style; turnarounds with biiidim
20:07 - Ensemble playing, prioritizing rhythm
21:18 - Banjo discussion
26:55 - Danny's Caribbean connection & Creole tunes

-----

28:42 to 29:01 - Tresillo based strums (accents on 1, 2&, 4)
29:03 to 29:07 - Hemiola based strums (accents on 1, 4, 3)

Here, Don Vappie talks about how these two rhythms are not so different from each other. My observation: the rests between the Tresillo accents (1 quarter note) are twice as long as the rests between the Hemiola accents (2 quarter notes).

29:16 - Tresillo rhythm (accents on 1, 2&, 4)
29:21 - Charleston rhythm (accents on 1, 2&)
29:25 - Calypso rhythm (accents on 2&, 4)

-----

31:51 - Creole songs
34:24 - Don Vappie talks Danny's tresillo & James P. Johnson's swing
35:40 - 1 & 3 pulse with 2 & 4 pulse
36:59 - bluegrass 2 & 4 vs Creole's 2 & 4
38:50 - [Performance] 'Salée Dame'
43:18 - Don Vappie plays a bit of 'La Ville Jacmel'
45:00 - Danny's voicings
46:06 - The melody
46:58 - Don Vappie's banjo style
50:28 - Promotional stuff
52:26 - Steve Masakowski meeting Danny
53:40 - Don Vappie's experience with Danny
56:10 - Danny's guitar

-----

see 3:47 for Danny Barker's solo

3:50 to 3:56 tresillo/clave based playing

3:57 to 4:02 more tresillo/clave based playing but he is playing all the rests so you actually hear that Scott Joplin, Maple Leaf ragtime rhythm! This is something I noticed banjo players do a lot (down-down-up rhythm to imply a dancey 3/8 polymetric feel)

4:06, 4:17 quarter note triplets

Thanks for this - I’ll try and check this out this week. As a baby tenor banjo botherer im very interested in Don Vappie.


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[brent.h]

28:42 to 29:01 - Tresillo based strums (accents on 1, 2&, 4)
29:03 to 29:07 - Hemiola based strums (accents on 1, 4, 3)

Here, Don Vappie talks about how these two rhythms are not so different from each other. My observation: the rests between the Tresillo accents (1 quarter note) are twice as long as the rests between the Hemiola accents (2 quarter notes).

Correction: I meant to say the rests between hemiola accents are two times longer than the rests between tresillo accents.

[AllanAllen]

Ah, Pat. I know him IRL, have played some gigs with him over the years.

He has some solid exercises on his channel. He’s really into the NOLA and Cuban stuff.


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Next time you see Pat, let him know some jerk in Illinois thinks he's a great drummer.

[brent.h]

Question: do tremolos sound more 'legitimate' if they are done in triplets/sextuplets vs done as 16ths/32nds?

[Christian Miller]

I think I can say that this question has never occurred to me

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[Hep To The Jive]

Question: do tremolos sound more 'legitimate' if they are done in triplets/sextuplets vs done as 16ths/32nds?

I think you really need to dive in and answer that question for us yourself because I'm not sure if anyone thought of this before. But now I'm curious!

[brent.h]

I think I can say that this question has never occurred to me

I think you really need to dive in and answer that question for us yourself because I'm not sure if anyone thought of this before. But now I'm curious!

From what I hear tremolos seem to be done more in threes/sixes than fours because of that irregular rolling & tumbling sound. That jagged texture certainly has a lot of energy. Fours in comparison have a rounder, smoother texture because of how even they are.