I hear 3 kinds of "time"...

[princeplanet]

Not talking about comping so much, but soloing. So we try to have solid time, right? Lets say long stream of 8ths at medium tempos, if you can't get it to be, say, like Martino like solid, you might come off sounding like you're trying to but without the control required, especially for tricky lines. And that's 2 of the kinds of time I notice in most players right there. But more and more I'm appreciating the players that can play lines with rock solid time, but can also go into another mode where the push and pull is not the kind that many of us suffer from through inadequacy, but the controlled kind that is used to masterful effect. It's that vocal-like thing, like Sinatra, the thing I like to call "elastic" time that others might refer to as "rubato" or something.

Now it's probably easier to do this with the voice or voice like instruments - any good sax or trumpet players do it all the time- but you do hear it on piano, Bill Evans, Herbie, Jarrett etc. However not too many guitarists are as elastic, I don't think (let me know if you disagree). I mean there are outstanding exceptions like Django, but I don't hear phrasing on our instrument from many players that has the controlled push and pull of say a Cannonball Adderley. Is it only because of the mechanics of the instrument? Or because of some inherited convention (like avoiding bending or distortion etc)? Or some other reason?

Or am I just not noticing it? Dunno, do players like Scofield sound elastic to you? Who else?

[emanresu]

I think there are two types of timing: the one you're playing, and the one that's heard. The more skill you have (in a simple way to say it), the more these two align.


The loosey-goosey way of playing - where you can toy with the timing, while still implying the correct one - is the supreme skill

[Average Joe]

I think this is an aspect where blues players shine - sure, not all of them, and they may not be able to tun through Moments Notice, etc, and so on and so forth. But a lot of good blues players know how to pull and tuck at time. I btw think that’s an influence on Sco’s time.



in the jazz adjasant category, Robben Ford warrant mention. He’s got a lovely variance to his phrasing on eg Nothin But the Blues

[pamosmusic]

Not talking about comping so much, but soloing. So we try to have solid time, right? Lets say long stream of 8ths at medium tempos, if you can't get it to be, say, like Martino like solid, you might come off sounding like you're trying to but without the control required, especially for tricky lines. And that's 2 of the kinds of time I notice in most players right there. But more and more I'm appreciating the players that can play lines with rock solid time, but can also go into another mode where the push and pull is not the kind that many of us suffer from through inadequacy, but the controlled kind that is used to masterful effect. It's that vocal-like thing, like Sinatra, the thing I like to call "elastic" time that others might refer to as "rubato" or something.

Now it's probably easier to do this with the voice or voice like instruments - any good sax or trumpet players do it all the time- but you do hear it on piano, Bill Evans, Herbie, Jarrett etc. However not too many guitarists are as elastic, I don't think (let me know if you disagree). I mean there are outstanding exceptions like Django, but I don't hear phrasing on our instrument from many players that has the controlled push and pull of say a Cannonball Adderley. Is it only because of the mechanics of the instrument? Or because of some inherited convention (like avoiding bending or distortion etc)? Or some other reason?

Or am I just not noticing it? Dunno, do players like Scofield sound elastic to you? Who else?

Ive seen Ben Monder at Bar Next Door three or four times, which is interesting because it’s the only place I’ve ever heard him just playing standards.

But he plays like this.

He had this switch between locked in time and this chaotic floating the time sort of thing.

I saw Nir Felder there twice, again, all standards and he had the same thing.

[Ukena]

Just this week I remembered Barry Harris recommending that singers should phrase a ballad as if it were in 6. I'm now trying to make that work in ballad heads on guitar... vocally, it really loosens up the time.

[Cunamara]

Jimmy Raney was a master of this. Many of his lines pushed and pulled, used rhythmic displacement, etc. Holdsworth, too.

[Bob_Ross]

Holdsworth, too.

One thing that occurs to me when listening to improvisors like Holdsworth (and Brecker, and McLaughlin, et al...the folks that can create that sense of "elastic" time but also lock in to a pocket) is: Are they thinking of their "elastic" lines in reference to strict time? i.e., are they thinking in terms of sophisticated polyrhythms? Or, do they just think "Get Loose Here"?

Fun tidbit: Anthony Braxton uses the expression "Accordion Time-Space" to refer to getting super-elastic/loosey-goosey.

[Christian Miller]

Me attempting to transcribe Allan's rhythms

[princeplanet]

One thing that occurs to me when listening to improvisors like Holdsworth (and Brecker, and McLaughlin, et al...the folks that can create that sense of "elastic" time but also lock in to a pocket) is: Are they thinking of their "elastic" lines in reference to strict time? i.e., are they thinking in terms of sophisticated polyrhythms? Or, do they just think "Get Loose Here"?

Fun tidbit: Anthony Braxton uses the expression "Accordion Time-Space" to refer to getting super-elastic/loosey-goosey.

Come of think it, I'm sure I've heard that expression too, but "Concertina" time, I like it . As for whatever they're (we're?) thinking, perhaps it's not as thought out as that. When you look at Parker, it's like he tries to squeeze in phrases in places they don't quite fit, but he makes it fit somehow. Lets say you have a 16 note line that fits into a bar, if you start it late, you're squeezing 16 notes into 14 or 15 sixteenths of a bar, or playing 9 or 10 notes where you'd usually fit 8. I think you may get to a point where it's like talking, sometimes you need to speed up your talking to get your point across before being interrupted! We all do that, or like when I was a young boy walking home from school and didn't wanna step on the cracks on the pavement, so worked out a rhythmic method of pacing steps for most of the way but making exceptions for irregular cracks, where you would either take a series of long steps to negotiate, or a series of short ones, and often a combination of both. I'd do it on the fly - I never stopped, but intuitively found a way to keep my stride, but never step on a crack! (didn't wanna break my mother's back ).

Haha, that's a long winded way to explain how I feel about it, in other words I didn't have a worked out way about exactly how many and what kind of steps to get through the tricky sections of pavement, I just made it up as I went along, having faith in my ability to improvise it differently each time. Never broke her back (but busted her chops probably more often than she busted mine... )

[princeplanet]

Me attempting to transcribe Allan's rhythms

Interesting exercise, but really, who's gonna wanna learn how to play these kinds of Holdsworth lines by reading them? I'm sure he'd be quite amused by the idea.

[Alter]

If you see transcriptions of Coltrane and Hendrix there are a lot of similarities rhythm wise, both play any type of rhythm one can imagine.

I think what has helped me a lot was taking a few lessons with a good drummer early on (not that many but enough to point me to a direction), where I started practicing polyrhythms, combining and superimposing rhythms, realizing you can play on top of the beat, after or before, etc. It was my practicing habit whenever I didn't have a guitar around for years, that, singing solos and listening to music.

[GuyBoden]

Me attempting to transcribe Allan's rhythms

Gary Husband (drums) "Well, Allan doesn't think in terms of bar lengths, he just has a feeling for where things start and where things stop!"

[sgcim]

In my daily practice routine that ends with playing "Confirmation" at 200bpm, I started experimenting and playing with the metronome shoved all the way up to 250bpm, and blowing on tunes like ATTYA, etc... on 250bpm, instead of playing on them at 125 with the beat on one and three, the usual way I play on uptempo things.
At first I had trouble with 1-2-3-4 on 250, but got used to it after a while. Then I compared playing the same tune on 125 with beats on one and three, and found it much easier than the 250bpm way, even though they amount to the same tempo.
The results seem to be advantageous to my sense of time. Anyone try this?

[Christian Miller]

Interesting exercise, but really, who's gonna wanna learn how to play these kinds of Holdsworth lines by reading them? I'm sure he'd be quite amused by the idea.

I don’t know prince. Why do anything? why play jazz guitar? Why play jazz? Why be a smart alec on JGO? Why not do something sensible and helpful instead?

I have no answers to any of these questions, and neither do you.

It’s all easier to play by ear than to write, otoh I was preparing tabs for a video and I don’t like writing things down wrong if I can help it.

A lot of Holdsworth transcriptions out there are really bad.


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[emanresu]

The silliest project. I was asked nicely to make an instrumental version of a tune. I transcribed it, mimicked the vocal with the guitar. I tested my piezo guitar.
Instead doing my own, I left the mimicked thing as it was.

Well, the nuances of the time there is not what you'd call a jackpot. But it was an experiment

[Christian Miller]

Jimmy Raney was a master of this. Many of his lines pushed and pulled, used rhythmic displacement, etc. Holdsworth, too.

Holdsworth loved Raney. I can hear a connection.


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[Peter C]

If you see transcriptions of Coltrane and Hendrix there are a lot of similarities rhythm wise, both play any type of rhythm one can imagine.

I was just thinking Hendrix actually. It was his phrasing that made him badass, not the shred!

[pamosmusic]

I was just thinking Hendrix actually. It was his phrasing that made him badass, not the shred!

Well, if we’re going to include Hendrix, then this is a characteristic of a lot of other great electric blues players. Buddy Guy in particular really has that ability to groove, or to float the time.

EDIT: not a lot, obviously, but a higher proportion of the really great blues guitarists.

[GuyBoden]

Holdsworth loved Raney. I can hear a connection.

Allan Holdsworth: "I was extremely fond of Jimmy Raney. Of course there was Joe Pass, Tal Farlow and Barney Kessel. My dad bought lots of records to expose me to all this great music. Joe Pass' album Catch Me was mind boggling. But there was something about Jimmy Raney's sound that I loved. My favorite was a recording called Jimmy Raney In Three Attitudes which I lost during my move from England. I'm still trying to find the recording. He played a tune called "So In Love" and his solo is absolutely amazing."

[James W]

[Lockjaw Davis]

They're not different types of time, they're all principles used under the framework of how time feel functions.

You need a steady tempo, and the rhythms need to lock into that, but you should also demonstrate flexibility or elastic playing as you say to be able to push and pull for effect, or phrase by placing things in different spots.

Strange that guitarists do seem to use less flexibility. But there's always subtlety to everyone's playing. It usually isn't mega quantized all perfectly unless you're Mancuso playing like a machine. :P