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I used to think that having good timing was just a general skill, but more and more, it seems like time and rhythm feel are "case-sensitive".
A simple example: I get some licks grooving—there’s that strong, reassuring feeling that they work (I hope they do! :-) ). But then I switch to comping, and it’s a mess—off, unstable, just not locking in. Same tempo, same feel, but while the licks groove, the comping drifts almost immediately. And this is with a simple, repeating comp! Playing them side by side makes it even clearer—one works, the other sways off fast.
Another example, from a totally different situation: when playing in a classical trio, there are moments when everything just clicks—not because we're counting or keeping strict time, but because we’re all completely focused on the music. When that happens, the notes from all three instruments fit together perfectly, like a glove.
edit: and when the stars don't align, then counting the beats doesn't help really. Makes it mechanical and awkward, correct though.
So, does rhythm feel shift depending on the context? Any clever thoughts or similar experiences?Last edited by emanresu; 03-26-2025 at 02:45 PM.
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03-26-2025 02:05 PM
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My rhythm is a lot better when I don’t play the guitar than when I do.
I think the guitar takes a lot of CPU time if you aren’t careful. Counterintuitively it usually manifests as rushing.
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Some players seem to have a natural snappiness to their time. Everything they play is crisp and grooving. Kind of like a natural default option.
I find that my natural, default, state is somewhere south of that. So, I have to focus on making it snap, or it won't. That applies to playing solo and in groups.
With regard to groups, time is dependent on every member.
So, something that comes to mind is a bassist I played with a good deal some time back. I'd often end the session feeling like I couldn't play the guitar at all. The pianist somehow didn't seem to have the problem, so I blamed myself.
Later, when I started playing with a different bassist (same drummer a lot of the time and even the same pianist sometimes) suddenly everything was easier and I could play for hours without ever thinking about the time.
With one drummer, though, when time would start to fragment for unclear reasons, the drummer would somehow play without a definite sense of where the beat was. You wouldn't think that's possible when you're hitting things with sticks, but it seems to be possible. I think that a different drummer would feel the fragmentation and step forward, basically playing in a way that announces exactly where the beat is.
In my regular group and in my big bands, good time feels effortless. Now and then it may fragment a bit, more than it should, but that's infrequent.
BTW, I think that pianist knew that the bassist's time was off but the pianist just decided where the time should be and dictated it with strong accents. The bassist would follow.
Another bit of wisdom I heard from a teacher, "everybody gets off sometimes, the issue is how well you can get back on". That was liberating in a way.
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Feel wise, I think one thing that makes rhythm pop is nailing the upbeats in the right place and energising them, but not so much they are pulled early. Also being specific about how long notes last for. If you play quarter notes, think about both the beginning an ends of the notes. Pushing more sometimes for some styles of comping, maybe laying back a little more for soloing. And these things are subjective too.
But rhythmic feel and time are not the same thing. It's possible to be good at one and not good at the other. You can push and pull at the time and be really swingin. You can be completely metronomic and have no grease at all. In fact by modern standards a lot of the old players had quite elastic time. Tunes speed up and slow down all the time.
But these days the goalposts have moved - everyone these days needs to be acquainted with playing on click if they want to do sessions. And that's an art form in itself.
Playing on click you need to sit back a bit more and play in the pocket. But that's not the same skill as playing with a band for instance, where you might need to define the time a little more. It's all subject to context and the only way to learn that is to play with good players. People who play with a click a lot can end up dragging if they aren't careful. OTOH if you play with too much excitement you can rush.
The guitar requires synchronisation between the hands which can lead to one overlooking the synchronisation with the beat. I wonder if this isn't a reason why guitarists rush so much. I do know that I can perform rhythmic exercises more accurately scatting most often than playing. Getting it right with the playing requires me to be totally effortless with whatever I'm trying to play on guitar, there's no half measures.
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It could be a technical issue? Playing licks vs comping, different set of skills?
Personally I like metronomic feel, especially from drummers. I strongly believe in modern world one must be comfortable with metronome, it REALLY comes in handy in recording sessions. From there you can stretch, but it's a start. But then again, I'm not coming from straight ahead jazz school, where time supposed to be elastic, for better or worse.
One thing I can say for sure, on the example of this album, Clifford Brown and Max Roach Live At Basin Street 1956, I wouldn't want to be in that band lol I can usually jam along any record no problem, but not this one. That kind of ridiculous rushed feel, no thanks!
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When I experienced that my time feel was 'case sensitive,' it would just lock in depending on the group or material, or otherwise suck - it was because I didn't understand time feel.
There are a few components to it: there's your technical ability which you have to build up, there's your mental grasp on the time, and then there's also how spicy the material feels for you and that can energize you to play with good time feel.
So you need material that resonates with you, you need to build control over your hands, and you need understanding and experience with the mental side of time feel.
There's a thread on the components of time feel (which everyone got mad at). I view it as pretty essential to understand even though you don't find this taught anywhere. People say you just have to figure it out, which is retarded.
How to theoretically explain good time feel?
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Me too man. Me too.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I've taken to starting my practice every day with either hands tapping out rhythms on the table, or if I've got a minute, sticks and drum pad.
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^ I also had that experience. My technical skills on piano feel way better now that I'm focusing on vibraphone and spend minimal time at piano lol!
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Try counting on your heels. You'll be more consistently solid.
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There is no such thing as metronomic feel because the metronome has no feel. There are people who play with near-metronomic time, although this again can be deceptive. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Given the choice between playing a jazz gig with someone who swings like crazy but speeds up and someone who plays with no feel at all and stays rock solid to what ever tempo you dial in at the start, I would probably choose the first - and some exciting and vibey drummers tend to speed up. We can look to the history for countless examples Tony Williams in the 1964 concert? Pushing it like crazy. Blakey... etc etc.
OTOH we don't always have to choose, which is nice. I enjoy drummers who understand musical context. Some times a slight accelerando in the music is actually a good thing. Not everything is a pop session. But sometimes you need someone to be super accurate.
Anyway I don't want to blame other players when it's probably as much me driving the acceleration as anyone else. Groups of musicians have a collective tendency.Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-27-2025 at 06:05 AM.
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My time can be terrible, the problem could be due to playing with backing tracks more than a metronome (So, I've been told).
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I think you just need to practice your timing in every case, especially the ones you're having trouble with. Just sit with a metronome and play it repeatedly. Take a break or play something else, then come back to it. It will start to stick after a while. Practice the problem part, and also practice how you transition into it. Originally Posted by emanresu
It's important to always have the basic pulse, even when playing something complicated rhythmically. If I can't feel the pulse, or understand how my rhythms fit into it, I need to practice it until I do. Another thing to try is to simplify the rhythm, getting it's crucial parts, until you can add in more of the detail.
Sometimes it comes naturally, and other times I just have to be more conscious of transitions, etc. One thing I do is I have a tendency to speed up when changing to a different section, so I'm super conscious of not doing that, even though it doesn't quite "feel" right. It ends up sounding more powerful and exciting when I don't speed up. Like everything it just takes practice!
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You're probably not just focused on "your" music, but on the whole thing, so also what the others play. Classical music usually involves some kind of dialog between voices. Maybe if you try to see comping that way too that you'll get better results (provided the lead player(s) has/have the proper time feel Originally Posted by emanresu
) ?
Well, yes. It's not because all classical music doesn't swing that it has to be mechanic...edit: and when the stars don't align, then counting the beats doesn't help really. Makes it mechanical and awkward, correct though.
Timely thread - pun intended. I've been tasked with part-time direction of the guitar ensemble at my music school and there's this one member who apparently has no rythm feel at all (and admits to it). She's OK when she can play along, but I noticed that she's consistently about a half beat ahead otherwise. Even in something very simple with repeated quavers actually counted/beat in quavers.
Any tips for working on that would be more than appreciated!
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For the Barry Harris fans:
See 3mins for his comments on the 2 & 4 foot tappers.
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I mean metronomic feel aka playing steady. Not slowing down nor rushing. Although I prefer to be on top of the beat for swing. The drummers I played with if there is a problem it's mostly slowing down. If a drummer can keep up with crispy tempos that's a start! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Sure, some styles you gotta speed up a bit, like Bossa Nova. If not it feels wrong. But with swing I wouldn't like it. At least not like Max Roach did on the recording that I meantioned. It doesn't feel good, I can't even enjoy listening to it. Since it's live maybe there were some other factors, too much cocaine maybe?
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I've been playing obsessively to a Metronome since Tuesday. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
As Jazz guitar is my hobby and enjoyment is my main goal, I've got to state that playing along with backing tracks is much more fun than the metronome.
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I always tell students that it’s good to separate one’s practice and one’s playing. The pleasures of practice are rather different to playing (but very real) - but it helps with the playing. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
I've been playing obsessively to a Metronome since Tuesday.
As Jazz guitar is my hobby and enjoyment is my main goal, I've got to state that playing along with backing tracks is much more fun than the metronome.
Playing with backing track imo is more like playing than practice - at least the way most people do it.
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OTOH Yngwie Malmsteen said he never separated two, everytime he picked up the guitar he would play the same in his room as he would be in front of a stadium. Essentially never practiced. Maybe BS. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I know for me it doesn't matter if I play to metronome or backing track I enjoy it all. But I'm not practicing timing, I only practice technique, phrasing etc. My timing was fixed many years ago. I was told to fix it by practicing to metronome, first it was shaky, uncomfortable, but then something clicked inside lol... And it became natural. Actually it was a pretty quick transition. Since then I don't worry about it, I'm happy with it, but technique needs to grow. That's just me, it could be different for different people, but I'm not pushing for any changes in how I feel the time, it's where I want it to be.
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Look. A great player, but I’m not inclined to believe anything happens the way Yngwie says it does.
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Neither am I. I've heard him saying it on Rick Beato intervew, he seemed convincing, sincere, but who knows. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Yngwie was lucky enough to be Niccolo Paganini reincarnated, so it makes sense he doesn't have to separate practice and playing. But us mere mortals...
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It's quite clear from the interview that Yngwie learned by listening and copying music by ear, which I think is a fantastic and holistic practice activity. He just did it with Bach and Paganini rather than Wes or Charlie Parker. Same process though.
I would say, if you do nothing else, do that. Learn music by ear. It also stops you thinking about your technique all of the time, and allows your body to work towards creating a sound. If you hear fast, it helps you play fast.
Isn't it interesting how many of the 80s shredders did a LOT of that?
It's not necessary to separate out every aspect of your practice scientifically (although it can be useful, and Yngwie had issues with injuries IIRC?)
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I'm not sure if Bossa/Sabma is meant to speed up in terms of the tempo, but I was that it feels like it is. The last sixteenth in the Tamborim pattern etc is somewhat pushed from straight which is probably part of the reason. There's a fine line between getting the feel and rushing. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
My understanding should be able to do this with a click on the 1 and 3, which means your playing will be off the grid, but the overall tempo is whatever you set it. It's the feel as opposed to the time, if you like.
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As a teenager, everyone I knew learned Pop/Rock music by ear. If you joined a band, you got given a tape of songs to learn. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Is this other older players experience too?
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AFAICT Ultravox's Warren Cann plays like that. Of course their music isn't exactly meant to have a danceable quality but it still doesn't feel metronomic. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Keep it up and you may discover how easy it is to (learn to) ignore a metronome... even if you do have a proper time/rhythm feel Originally Posted by GuyBoden
I've been playing obsessively to a Metronome since Tuesday.
As Jazz guitar is my hobby and enjoyment is my main goal, I've got to state that playing along with backing tracks is much more fun than the metronome.
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