The difference between Gypsy Jazz and American swing guitar rhythm styles?

[rpjazzguitar]

This is very interesting, a live example of oral tradition, this is how a gipsy daddy teaches his son arpeggio runs:

Maybe this should have already been obvious, but I learned something from this video and the one with the lead player on a 335 type.

Before, what I read about GJ was about the type of guitar, the picking technique, the mechanical details of the pompe and maybe other technical details.

But, the two videos demonstrated 1) that you can get the sound on a 335 type 2) what makes it GJ, to my untrained ear, is more the nature of the melodic lines than the physical technique (although you need the vibrato to sound like that 335 guy).

The GJ icons that I've seen posted on here are monster virtuosos, with the virtuosity supporting the main thing, which is communication of emotion.

And, that's something you can apply to your own playing with instant results. Or at least, I'm going to try.

[Christian Miller]

Do Nuages in A flat (Django did it in F and A flat with clarinet players). A key change can make an old tune new again.

I originally learned it in F actually, from one of the clarinet recordings, learned the solo (forgotten it now) the one with the artificial harmonics. I assumed that’s the version everyone learned. I was a bit confused when I got to a GJ jam.

I’ve been working on the solo from the Holdsworth version. Don’t think I could play all the way through it on a Sel-Mac though, but some if it would sound great lol. Allan plays it in G.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

If I'm not mistaken it's Dyens's "tango en skai" so I wasn't wrong that it sounds French.
It could be a tango formally but depending on how/by whom it's played it may not sound that way ...

This is how I know La Cumparsita mentioned in the article.

Tango music is inseparably linked to tango dancing.

My favorite teacher couple to watch were always Gaby and Gustavo.

They met when Gaby who is from south of Munich was in Argentina for a study exchange through Goethe Institut. Gustavo once gave me a lecture of more than half an hour of how to make yerba mate, the traditional drink of the gauchos (Argentine cowboys). Gustavo grew up in the region where the yerba mate is cultivated under very poor conditions. His father who had served in the army had refused to throw shackled dissident prisoners alive out of helicopters into the ocean during the military dictatorship ... (May war criminal Henry Kissinger burn in seventh hell for wreaking evil havoc not only in Latin America ...)

[olejason]

But, the two videos demonstrated 1) that you can get the sound on a 335 type 2) what makes it GJ, to my untrained ear, is more the nature of the melodic lines than the physical technique (although you need the vibrato to sound like that 335 guy).

The physical technique is a huge part of it if you're playing on Selmer style guitars though. You simply can't get the tone or volume out of those guitars if you're not playing with rest strokes and a mostly floating right hand.

I've known a lot of guitar players who want to dabble in GJ but also seem hellbent on resisting learning the right-hand technique, have no interest in learning how to play rhythm properly, etc. Also lots of complaints about a 10th fret dot All that stuff is part of the fun IMO.

[mr. beaumont]

I mean, can you take a Django style solo on a 335? Sure, I guess.

But the whole fun of that music is the acoustic jams...and I'm sorry, you can't play the rhythm on an unplugged 335.

It's why I still keep one of those guitars around, even though it's not a style I play much. Because when my guys are in town and call me up, they bring wine and it's 2am and I've played "Noto Swing" 3 times already and who fucking cares, it's fun.

[Christian Miller]

I do like playing acoustic. Did one last night. It feels honest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RJVB]

It feels honest.

Hear, hear! (or, sometimes you do get what I'm getting at )

[Christian Miller]

Hear, hear! (or, sometimes you do get what I'm getting at )

I've always enjoyed playing acoustic. Not possible most of the time sadly.

[Hep To The Jive]

The physical technique is a huge part of it if you're playing on Selmer style guitars though. You simply can't get the tone or volume out of those guitars if you're not playing with rest strokes and a mostly floating right hand.

I've known a lot of guitar players who want to dabble in GJ but also seem hellbent on resisting learning the right-hand technique, have no interest in learning how to play rhythm properly, etc. Also lots of complaints about a 10th fret dot All that stuff is part of the fun IMO.

True that! But the players who want to just dabble in GJ (me included) may think that the downstroke rules might be kinda limited for other styles. For example, if you find yourself playing funky rhythm guitar in a pop band most of the time, those 16th notes require a different skill that you need to work on. It might be about what do you want to spend your practice time on.

But there's no excuse not to get the La Pompe right. You gotta play GJ rhythm guitar the proper way! The lead style is debatable for those who are not a full time GJ player. All IMO, I admit I could be wrong about it.

[Lionelsax]

[pawlowski6132]

Hmmm. Interesting. I'm still trying to process how I feel about all this. It's been top of mind and I even have some recent first hand experience learning about this topic last weekend.

[m_d]

I'm French (born) and have always preferred the American swing feel. I love rhythm guitar in jazz and wish more players gave it proper attention. In "gypsy" jazz it's a requirement from learners ; I've heard you don't get to play lead before you're proficient in rhythm. I remember an Angelo Debarre concert in Manhattan in the early 2000ies. His rhythm player played, well, rhythm guitar non stop for about two hours without skipping a beat or breaking a sweat. In "other" jazz, you don't see that kind of technical proficiency too often - which is a pity. There are quite a few exceptions, Mark Whitfield, for instance, I believe, has an awesome right hand. Super efficient, elaborate, clever mechanics (quite similar, btw, to that of bluegrass/rock virtuoso Andy Wood) ; this stuff can be learned.

[Lionelsax]

The only thing I guess about this is that non-gypsies who play gypsy jazz are more conservative than gypsies.

[RJVB]

The only thing I guess about this is that non-gypsies who play gypsy jazz are more conservative than gypsies.

They have to be ... only gypsies can evolve gypsy jazz into something that's still gypsy jazz.

[Lionelsax]

They have to be ... only gypsies can evolve gypsy jazz into something that's still gypsy jazz.

Are you sure ? Only non-gypsies say you need a Selmer Maccaferri guitar to play "gypsy" jazz.
If gypsies still play like this it's because people want them to play like this. They sometimes complain about that and they sometimes say that Django wouldn't like that.

[RJVB]

You can consider gypsy jazz as jazz played by gypsies, in which case no one else can play, let alone "evolve" it. So let's rather define it as "jazz as gypsies play(ed) it". In that case my statement is a bit of a tautology.

The fact "they" are still expected to play as they did way back when doesn't change that - and not everyone does. Or maybe Lulo has a different name for what he does?

[Cunamara]

But, the two videos demonstrated ... what makes it GJ, to my untrained ear, is more the nature of the melodic lines than the physical technique...

Sounded like he was demonstrating the harmonic minor scale to the young lad; to my ears, that is a predominant sound in Gypsy jazz melodies and soloing.