MuseScore or ... ?

[Ukena]

I'm still not convinced by all of this, impressive as it is.

In the last week or so I composed at the piano with pencil on manuscript, just like always. If erasures are too smudgy for my printer I apply whiteout. I like handwriting. I like calligraphy. By humans. That'll never change.

What does intrigue me, the convenience of not having to copy parts and other things you all know and love notwithstanding, is using synths to create a soundworld. I am continually knocked out by the synth programming Malcolm Cecil did for Stevie Wonder in the '70s. Gives me chills. So I can see making synth art, which would be a situation where I could select and mix sounds and I, not the machine, would be in control. I've heard impressive demos and would love to see what I could cook up. (Of course to convert those for a band and hand out parts from such arrangements requires an understanding of orchestration. Humans can't do what machines can and machines don't worry about breath and breaks---they'll hold a note for as long as you program it for. So maybe synth-driven pieces are and should be things unto themselves, and arranging for band could start with synths, then reconfigured.)

The notation piece I admit has to be recognized, today's world being what it is, so at some point I guess I'll cave. But playback? Yes, it can help us spot mistakes or things that could be better done. That's all well and good, especially when it saves rehearsal time that uncorrected goofs would otherwise waste. But what about hearing it in your head, trusting that, writing it down and playing it at piano with the sustain pedal so you can hear everything? Do you really need digital representations of passages you'll hear by the actual players? And the sound bank doesn't allow for individuation. Duke Ellington's parts didn't say 'alto', they said 'Johnny'. Will that die? Is it already dead? Anyway, I mostly don't orchestrate beyond a quintet, and if I can't hear what a trumpet part sounds like in advance time to sell aluminum siding. I mean this stuff is mother's milk for a composer with even a little experience and chops.

Maybe it's a door to a new world I should open and enter, and maybe I'll go in. But I'll take along those security blankets...

I envy you being able to hear it all in your head, and have great respect for that; but not all of us have that ability. For me, I have to hum the part, and imagine the harmony from the indicated chords. Without chords, I can't put together what it might sound like from the various parts. At the very least, I would have to play it on the piano. And I'm terrible at reading more than two voices on the piano, even of stuff I actually wrote.

In addition to StaffPad, there is also NotateMe, which should work on your iPad if it was the latest version 3 years ago. It may work even if that isn't true – the best thing to do is to try it. NotateMe lets you actually notate music on a staff using a stylus (or maybe your finger) and recognizes it as music, which it can digitize so it can be manipulated as any other digitized music (which means you can transpose, print out parts with another application, etc.)

Unfortunately, at this time, no one has come up with software to reliably recognize handwritten scores, which is pretty understandable. It is being worked on, but it may be a long time before a solution is found. So until then, if you want to do the digital things that may interest you, you'll have to engage with the software end of it at some point. I understand the predicament – I, also, had to learn many complicated things in order to use the software. But I was younger, and it actually interested me, so I was lucky to get in on the ground floor.

[joelf]

I envy you being able to hear it all in your head, and have great respect for that; but not all of us have that ability. For me, I have to hum the part, and imagine the harmony from the indicated chords. Without chords, I can't put together what it might sound like from the various parts. At the very least, I would have to play it on the piano. And I'm terrible at reading more than two voices on the piano, even of stuff I actually wrote.

In addition to StaffPad, there is also NotateMe, which should work on your iPad if it was the latest version 3 years ago. It may work even if that isn't true – the best thing to do is to try it. NotateMe lets you actually notate music on a staff using a stylus (or maybe your finger) and recognizes it as music, which it can digitize so it can be manipulated as any other digitized music (which means you can transpose, print out parts with another application, etc.)

Unfortunately, at this time, no one has come up with software to reliably recognize handwritten scores, which is pretty understandable. It is being worked on, but it may be a long time before a solution is found. So until then, if you want to do the digital things that may interest you, you'll have to engage with the software end of it at some point. I understand the predicament – I, also, had to learn many complicated things in order to use the software. But I was younger, and it actually interested me, so I was lucky to get in on the ground floor.

Thanks for the info---and your humility.

I'd write more, but am well fried from dealing all day with guess what?

You're right: our modern, 'easier' world. Ugh...

[jzucker]

how did we end up debating the merits of software notation programs? For me, that ship sailed 30+ years ago. My dad started using Finale at the age of 75 and it was the first software he ever had on a computer and eventually used it for band arrangements, transposing charts, music copying, etc.

[joelf]

I envy you being able to hear it all in your head, and have great respect for that; but not all of us have that ability. For me, I have to hum the part, and imagine the harmony from the indicated chords. Without chords, I can't put together what it might sound like from the various parts. At the very least, I would have to play it on the piano. And I'm terrible at reading more than two voices on the piano, even of stuff I actually wrote.

In addition to StaffPad, there is also NotateMe, which should work on your iPad if it was the latest version 3 years ago. It may work even if that isn't true – the best thing to do is to try it. NotateMe lets you actually notate music on a staff using a stylus (or maybe your finger) and recognizes it as music, which it can digitize so it can be manipulated as any other digitized music (which means you can transpose, print out parts with another application, etc.)

Unfortunately, at this time, no one has come up with software to reliably recognize handwritten scores, which is pretty understandable. It is being worked on, but it may be a long time before a solution is found. So until then, if you want to do the digital things that may interest you, you'll have to engage with the software end of it at some point. I understand the predicament – I, also, had to learn many complicated things in order to use the software. But I was younger, and it actually interested me, so I was lucky to get in on the ground floor.

I hear you. What I'm leaning towards, though, is keeping things as is. I like penciling, applying whiteout, darkening it in after, etc. Shoot me. I just can't get with any 'helpful' technology. Ex: I finally caved and got an iPhone. I loathe it! Way too hard to use and it keeps doing weird shit like turning off the sound on Waze while I'm driving. I pushed what I thought was a volume button and wasn't. Plus the damn thing keeps interrupting me during an activity I'm trying to focus on. It's a poorly-designed, unnecessarily complicated but very astutely marketed product IMO. And Steve Jobs himself was IMO a low human being, so I don't feel it's good for the karma to support people like that by buying their products. We have free choice after all, and don't have to be sheep.

I've admitted that I'm not too patient, and this still holds. But I'd be patient messing with synth sounds b/c I can see the creative potential there. But I will not give up handwriting! It's one thing that allows for individuality, just as we should strive to be original when playing or composing. I've learned a great deal from looking at handwritten scores and lead sheets by writers I admire like Bill Finegan; Manny Albam and James Chirillo. Writing by hand worked peachy keen for them, and the work is both individual and beautiful to the eye (in fairness and disclosure: Chirillo now uses Finale or Sibelius, I forget which, exclusively---for final cut, though his sketch scores are still in pencil)

Machines and me just don't like each other. They drive me nuts, except my car and microwave. (I turn the steering wheel to the right and BAM I make a right. I press 5 minutes on the microwave and damned if my food doesn't get ready in 5 minutes!!). The rest just raise my blood pressure with all their complications, learning curves and especially multiple passwords to remember (or forget). Why go through that? I'd rather pay someone to do it for me and be free to concentrate on the music (or spend all the time wasted trying to negotiate all this techno shit on things I enjoy and that don't continually make me feel stupid).

But I'll at least consider changing, or at least compromising. No choice any more anyway---they got us all by the balls...

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I hear you. What I'm leaning towards, though, is keeping things as is. I like penciling, applying whiteout, darkening it in after, etc. Shoot me. I just can't get with any 'helpful' technology. Ex: I finally caved and got an iPhone. I loathe it! Way too hard to use and it keeps doing weird shit like turning off the sound on Waze while I'm driving. I pushed what I thought was a volume button and wasn't. Plus the damn thing keeps interrupting me during an activity I'm trying to focus on. It's a poorly-designed, unnecessarily complicated but very astutely marketed product IMO. And Steve Jobs himself was IMO a low human being, so I don't feel it's good for the karma to support people like that by buying their products. We have free choice after all, and don't have to be sheep.

I've admitted that I'm not too patient, and this still holds. But I'd be patient messing with synth sounds b/c I can see the creative potential there. But I will not give up handwriting! It's one thing that allows for individuality, just as we should strive to be original when playing or composing.

Machines and me just don't like each other. They drive me nuts, except my car and microwave. (I turn the steering wheel to the right and BAM I make a right. I press 5 minutes on the microwave and damned if my food doesn't get ready in 5 minutes!!). The rest just raise my blood pressure with all their complications, learning curves and especially multiple passwords to remember (or forget). Why go through that? I'd rather pay someone to do it for me and be free to concentrate on the music (or spend all the time wasted trying to negotiate all this techno shit on things I enjoy and that don't continually make me feel stupid).

But I'll at least consider changing, or at least compromising. No choice any more anyway---they got us all by the balls...

"I just can't get with any 'helpful' technology." I think such negative affirmations are not helpful for succeeding in something. I see your points and the patience problem. But remember when you started to learn guitar. Did you get everything from day one? Or did you have to practice a lot, sometimes very frustrated, to get where you are now? Everything has a learning curve. Computer nerds say "RTFM" (Read the f.cking manual). I know you are a few years older than me. At 51 (since yesterday) I consider myself still a learner in many things. I think (hope) it keeps that thing between my ears well oiled.

Every piece of electronic hardware is dependant on Chinese exploitatory labor. It does not take a pseudo-Buddhist*) Steve Jobs for that. Smartphones are not that complicated. Toddlers get the hang of it. You do not have to love them but some apps are really of practical use like Drumgenius or iReal (IMHO). BTW there are apps called password managers. You do not have to remember all of them.

I do not want to talk you into anything. Using paper and pencil is fine ... breath in ... breath out ...

*) Feeling love for all living beings and using exploitatory labor does not go together well for me.

[joelf]

"I just can't get with any 'helpful' technology." I think such negative affirmations are not helpful for succeeding in something. I see your points and the patience problem. But remember when you started to learn guitar. Did you get everything from day one? Or did you have to practice a lot, sometimes very frustrated, to get where you are now? Everything has a learning curve. Computer nerds say "RTFM" (Read the f.cking manual). I know you are a few years older than me. At 51 (since yesterday) I consider myself still a learner in many things. I think (hope) it keeps that thing between my ears well oiled.

Every piece of electronic hardware is dependant on Chinese exploitatory labor. It does not take a pseudo-Buddhist*) Steve Jobs for that. Smartphones are not that complicated. Toddlers get the hang of it. You do not have to love them but some apps are really of practical use like Drumgenius or iReal (IMHO). BTW there are apps called password managers. You do not have to remember all of them.

I do not want to talk you into anything. Using paper and pencil is fine ... breath in ... breath out ...

*) Feeling love for all living beings and using exploitatory labor does not go together well for me.

Thanks, but my mind is made up. You couldn't possibly know me as well as I know myself now, could you?

I'll ease into what I have no choice but to, (and would love to mess with synth recording), but continue the lo-tech approach to written composition and copying. Brain; piano (or guitar)pedaling when necessary; manuscript paper and whiteout; scan to save, etc. That's just the kind of crazy hairpin I am.

I do apologize to the OP for hijacking the thread though, and thank everyone who offered their help. Done...

[grahambop]

Making recordings, using the audio recording/editing software, making videos and using the video editing software, using notation software to produce scores (and midi files to use in the recording software!), with the assorted gear, microphones, interfaces, cameras, etc. etc. and trying to get all this up to the standard to put it on youtube - these are all time-consuming (and frequently frustrating) rabbit-holes to go down. (As if playing jazz guitar to a good standard isn’t hard enough!)

So I can totally understand why some people don’t want to get embroiled in it.

Personally I enjoy it, but then I worked in systems for 40 years so I’m used to forcing recalcitrant software to obey my bidding. (Still doesn’t stop me swearing at the screen a lot!)

I do like Musescore a lot, for a freebie I think it’s great. I never use Finale now.

[sgcim]

Making recordings, using the audio recording/editing software, making videos and using the video editing software, using notation software to produce scores (and midi files to use in the recording software!), with the assorted gear, microphones, interfaces, cameras, etc. etc. and trying to get all this up to the standard to put it on youtube - these are all time-consuming (and frequently frustrating) rabbit-holes to go down. (As if playing jazz guitar to a good standard isn’t hard enough!)

So I can totally understand why some people don’t want to get embroiled in it.

Personally I enjoy it, but then I worked in systems for 40 years so I’m used to forcing recalcitrant software to obey my bidding. (Still doesn’t stop me swearing at the screen a lot!)

I do like Musescore a lot, for a freebie I think it’s great. I never use Finale now.

Have you tried the new guitar sounds yet? I'm writing my first chart for big band and guitar, and it sounds good enough that I might not go to the rehearsal Tues. night. In fact, I might as well just quit the band and the guitar, and just write guitar and big band charts and save everybody a lot of trouble....

[grahambop]

Have you tried the new guitar sounds yet? I'm writing my first chart for big band and guitar, and it sounds good enough that I might not go to the rehearsal Tues. night. In fact, I might as well just quit the band and the guitar, and just write guitar and big band charts and save everybody a lot of trouble....

I haven’t tried it yet, I’ll have to give it a go.

[grahambop]

Have you tried the new guitar sounds yet? I'm writing my first chart for big band and guitar, and it sounds good enough that I might not go to the rehearsal Tues. night. In fact, I might as well just quit the band and the guitar, and just write guitar and big band charts and save everybody a lot of trouble....

OK I've managed to try the new sounds now. I updated Musescore to 4.2 first, then went into the Musehub (in the system tray), found Guitars Vol. 1, went into it to have a look, tried to 'Get' the update, and it just gave an error! (which I think you encountered too). So I restarted the PC, retried the 'get' and for whatever reason, this time it worked.

So I tried the LP Clean - not too bad but still sounds a bit like surf guitar to me! Then tried SC (Strat) Clean - oddly I found this a bit better, at least it's a bit less twangy. Sounds like it has some odd palm-muting effect though. Anyway it's good enough to try out a score with. I'll keep playing around with it.

[sgcim]

OK I've managed to try the new sounds now. I updated Musescore to 4.2 first, then went into the Musehub (in the system tray), found Guitars Vol. 1, went into it to have a look, tried to 'Get' the update, and it just gave an error! (which I think you encountered too). So I restarted the PC, retried the 'get' and for whatever reason, this time it worked.

So I tried the LP Clean - not too bad but still sounds a bit like surf guitar to me! Then tried SC (Strat) Clean - oddly I found this a bit better, at least it's a bit less twangy. Sounds like it has some odd palm-muting effect though. Anyway it's good enough to try out a score with. I'll keep playing around with it.

Yeah, on my chart I have the SC playing the melody in octaves. It sounds like Wes going surfing after his "Full House" gig.

[grahambop]

I’ve also managed to get the VST option working, and applied a free guitar plugin which I found somewhere. It includes a clean Tele sound (allegedly sampled using the neck pickup) which is useable, I will play around with that as well.

[Ukena]

[...] Why go through that? I'd rather pay someone to do it for me and be free to concentrate on the music (or spend all the time wasted trying to negotiate all this techno shit on things I enjoy and that don't continually make me feel stupid).[...]

There are definitely people who will transcribe your handwritten scores into digital copies, which can then be transposed or printed out by part. Transposing and printing parts are not difficult in Musescore; you could learn to do just those things, and not have to learn the whole complicated thing.

Here is an example of a person willing to do this for a reasonable fee (this is not a recommendation; I don't know who this person is, athough I have used fiverr.com for a furniture delivery, and was satisfied with the result):

Your Access To This Website Has Been Blocked

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I’ve also managed to get the VST option working, and applied a free guitar plugin which I found somewhere. It includes a clean Tele sound (allegedly sampled using the neck pickup) which is useable, I will play around with that as well.

A while ago you posted a recording where you played over an arrangement that you had made yourself using a big band sound VST plugin. Could you remind me how this plugin is called and did you try it in musescore?

[grahambop]

A while ago you posted a recording where you played over an arrangement that you had made yourself using a big band sound VST plugin. Could you remind me how this plugin is called and did you try it in musescore?

Yes, the plugin is called SINE Player Big Band. I tried it in Musescore but it did not show it as an available VST option, I don’t know why.

To be honest, I had to do a lot of messing about with parameters etc. to get it to work fully in Reaper, so I suspect Musescore would be even more tricky to call it from.

The new brass and woodwinds in Musescore don’t sound too bad actually, I think they are decent enough to test out a score with.

[grahambop]

I like the fact that when you open a v3 score in v4, it automatically switches all the instruments over to the new sounds in the mixer (if you have them downloaded), that saves a lot of time with a big band score!

[sgcim]

I like the fact that when you open a v3 score in v4, it automatically switches all the instruments over to the new sounds in the mixer (if you have them downloaded), that saves a lot of time with a big band score!

Does that mean you could add the new clean guitar sounds to a v3 score if you open it in v4, by switching the guitar sound in the mixer?
I've downloaded all the new sounds.

[teeps]

TuxGuitar is easy to work with for a guitar/bass player.
Musescore has good sounds.

I use both.

TuxGuitar - Wikipedia

[grahambop]

Does that mean you could add the new clean guitar sounds to a v3 score if you open it in v4, by switching the guitar sound in the mixer?
I've downloaded all the new sounds.

Yes you should be able to do that, in fact you may find it does it by itself, if the guitar sound you specified in v3 has a suitable equivalent in v4.

[GuyBoden]

My main problem with Musescore is that it doesn't do this automatically: "it's convention to remind the musician that they are back to the key signature by adding another accidental to match the key signature":

[grahambop]

I’m not sure that’s exactly a ‘convention’, my understanding is that the use of such courtesy accidentals is at the discretion of the individual publisher/arranger or whoever. It could easily clutter up the score if done constantly.

I don’t see this much in classical guitar scores, for example. There you are just expected to know how to read according to the rules.

Admittedly I will mark a courtesy accidental on a score occasionally, if it is a particularly confusing passage (but then I’m not the world’s greatest sight-reader!).

I used to have Finale before I got Musescore, and I don’t think it did this either.

[Christian Miller]

It’s not a convention

There probably a setting buried in a menu somewhere though

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[grahambop]

Googling it suggests there may be a musescore plugin which can be installed to populate them all automatically.

[GuyBoden]

It’s not a convention

But, it can be a convention to some, depending upon their intransigence.

Wrong menu?

[Christian Miller]

But, it can be a convention to some, depending upon their intransigence.

Wrong menu?

I learned many years ago that you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t when it comes to parts.

But AFAIK any inclusion of accidentals in this way is purely precautionary and at the discretion of the composer.

However even very experienced sight readers can miss accidentals.


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