Band in a Box Soloists

[randalljazz]

This is a very interesting analysis but as I think about it, it does not really surprise me. The problem is that the stats are out of context. It is like counting vowels used in a sentence. They are always there, but without context, it is a bit meaningless.

I would expect that the great beboppers statistically played more fundamental chord tones than not. In order to make a phrase sound "outside" the player must first prepare the listener with inside sounds. So, the effect of outside playing is more about contrast and context. Consistently hitting outside tones on the down beat will eliminate the option of creating contrasting phrases against the harmonic "pad" of the tune (not to mention that it would soon sound annoying). It is better to study when the bopper applies outside phrases rather than analyse how many outside notes are used.

Also, the lion's share of outside phrases will in fact hit an inside tone on the down beat. For example, it is possible to play a G7 phrase and a Galt phrase that target the 3rd and the root on the downbeats. The effect of playing an outside note on a downbeat will often create a an out-of-phase feeling that will cause a the listener to feel that the phrase is incomplete. It is a great device to create extended phrases and forward motion. but again it is best used to create surprise and contrast IMO. (this is intuitively obvious in improv when you feel that you must continue a line because it does not "feel" complete, even when you play inside the tonal center)

Anyway, I think if you counted the number of "outside phrases" in Bird's music, you would get a totally different picture.

Just some thoughts on this interesting analysis

the context is the solo of rollins over his own bop classic, and how he structures his lines--what makes them "work", namely that, as you later observe, very inside notes on strong beats (and even weak beats) is what make the "outside" notes still sound like music.

the lesson for the rest of us is, maybe, if you want to sound like you know what you are doing (and make graceful musical statements), learn to put chord tones on the beat, without sounding like you are running arpeggio exercises.

scales, schmales!

[Jazzaluk]

the context is the solo of rollins over his own bop classic, and how he structures his lines--what makes them "work", namely that, as you later observe, very inside notes on strong beats (and even weak beats) is what make the "outside" notes still sound like music.

the lesson for the rest of us is, maybe, if you want to sound like you know what you are doing (and make graceful musical statements), learn to put chord tones on the beat, without sounding like you are running arpeggio exercises.

scales, schmales!

I agree, that's it! It is funny how, after years of wading through music theory and concepts, I find these simple truths the most powerful.

Have you read "Forward Motion" by Hal Galper? He demonstrates how to make this idea sparkle.

[randalljazz]

wes, first 2 (16 ms) choruses of four on six (from smokin' at the half note):

beats 1 and 3:

root-----5 times
third-----7 times
fifth------4 times
seventh--8 times
ninth-----15 times (!)
fourth-----6 times
sixth------7 times

52 of 64 possible; 9 rests. the other three notes are chromatic leading tones that resolve immediately to a chord note.

[randalljazz]

bird's solo on shaw 'nuff, chord tones on beats 1 and 3:

roots------6 times
thirds-----10 times
fifths------8 times
sevenths--9 times
ninths-----9 times
fourths----1 time
sixths-----4 times

47 chord tones of possible 65 (counting the resolution note in ms 33); 14 beats of rest; 4 non-chord tones.

[princeplanet]

that's close to what I'd hope from Bird. Hurry back Jeff...

[Oniel]

Amazed by the use of ninths in Wes Solo. I just don't get how they do it, but some of the BIAB solist are like hearing the originals. Just amazing.

[princeplanet]

Agreed, even though a lot of the soloists come off a bit NQR against some progressions, when you get the right one for the right tune, it can really cook! Would love to hear of any fave couplings of soloist and tune that peeps have discovered...

[Jazzarian]

Amazed by the use of ninths in Wes Solo. I just don't get how they do it, but some of the BIAB solist are like hearing the originals. Just amazing.

One of the most fun things you can do with the soloists is to trade 4s and 8s. You can set up BIAB to do this, like let's say the 2nd chorus.

Using my Roland Strat, used as both guitar and RolandGR33 "Breathy Tenor Sax", I had guitar and sax in unison, trading 4s with Andy Laverne on piano.

Humans can't have more fun than that.

[princeplanet]

I just ordered BIAB 09 for MAC with some extras. Apparently the soloist algorithms are even better? Is it true you can now hear real instruments instead of midi? Or is that only with the backing sounds?
You know, as cool as it is for learning and composing, I hope you don't start to see many trios and small groups lose out to the solo guy with the laptop, it's just not, well, jazz......

[Jazzarian]

I just ordered BIAB 09 for MAC with some extras. Apparently the soloist algorithms are even better? Is it true you can now hear real instruments instead of midi? Or is that only with the backing sounds?
You know, as cool as it is for learning and composing, I hope you don't start to see many trios and small groups lose out to the solo guy with the laptop, it's just not, well, jazz......

In addition to Real Drums, they now have something similar for the rest of the band, called Real Band.

I wasn't wild about the Real Drums. My software synth's drums sound more lifelike. They were also a pain in the ass to work with.

Can't say for Real Band, haven't used it.

I've upgraded my music synth to NI's Bandstand, which can be very fine. The horns still suck and sound like accordians though.

[princeplanet]

well, I've installed 09 and it's....... (drum roll)........ freakin' awesome!

Not to say there's not a lot not to bitch about, but the (real!) sounds, styles and soloists are extremely impressive. This is the start of something huge. The implications are ominous, however, for recording folk on both sides of the glass.....