Could Charlie Parker sing...

[princeplanet]

.. his lines ?

"If you can't sing it, you're not really hearing it" - True or False? Keith Jarrett was possibly one of the greatest improvisors of all time, and we know how well he could sing! There are too many other examples of people who appeared unable to sing what they played, yet there have always been people who can (and do) it that seem to feel if others can't and don't do it, they are somehow illegitimate.

Singing anything that is fast with a lot of chromaticism is actually quite difficult, even if you hear it quite clearly in your head, which I think is more useful.

Any thoughts?

[AllanAllen]

You can't sing with a horn in your mouth.

I try not to worry so much about legitimizing someone else's dogma. I have my own dogma to worry about. I usually tell someone something like "I haven't gotten to that yet, there's so much to work on and only 24 hours in a day" when they start giving advice or suggestions about my practice routine.

[BradGuitar]

And then where does it end?

George Benson is a great singer, I’m not sure he nails everything he sings when he improvises. I think it’s more for the rhythmic aspect. Does that make him illegitimate? Ditto Holdsworth who I can’t imagine sang (m)any of his lines…

But I do think Parker could sing his lines. Most horn players I know can sing the stuff away from the instrument and Parker was… well, Parker after all.

So for me, it’s false and a little unfair of a claim to make, certainly against the greatest improvisors that aren’t known for outwardly doing it. But is it a helpful thing to do and integrate into one’s playing? Most definitely! I certainly try and make a point of doing it.

[princeplanet]

And then where does it end?

George Benson is a great singer, I’m not sure he nails everything he sings when he improvises. ...

He goes pretty darn close. He certainly makes me feel illegitimate in comparison ...

[AllanAllen]

George Benson is a great singer, I’m not sure he nails everything he sings when he improvises. I think it’s more for the rhythmic aspect. Does that make him illegitimate?

I noticed watching John Pizzarelli clips that he doesn't match pitch on everything, but he's right there on rhythm. Such a great player.

[princeplanet]

...

But I do think Parker could sing his lines. Most horn players I know can sing the stuff away from the instrument and Parker was… well, Parker after all.

...

But would you (we) feel any different about his playing if it turns out he couldn't sing his lines (away from the horn, natch...)?

[princeplanet]

I noticed watching John Pizzarelli clips that he doesn't match pitch on everything, but he's right there on rhythm. Such a great player.

I feel that most of us can vocally "approximate" our up tempo lines, but are in awe of those that can crisply sing every 16th note in complex bop lines with accurate pitch. Are such players hearing music "better" than we are? Or just better singers? Is the correlation between ability to audiate and and what comes out on the instrument important? Can you play what you hear, even if you can't sing it? Or is singing it proof that you hear it?

Does it even mater?...

[pamosmusic]

This is kind of a false dichotomy.

I definitely think if you can’t sing it you can’t hear it.

But no one ever said you have to sing it well.

Pitches are kind of a different thing (particularly on piano and guitar) because there are other ways to find a pitch. You can see that you’re on the right fret and string, etc. there’s something similar with saxophone but intonation is very flexible. Brass, that starts to fall apart.

Any band class … band plays a Bb. It’s whack. Director stops. Play it again. Still whack. Zeros in on the trumpet. Play it again. Trumpets are whack. Trumpets — sing Bb. Director sings. Trumpets sing. Now play Bb. Trumpets play Bb and it’s way better.

Rhythm is where it really shows up. Whenever anyone is having trouble playing a rhythm I tell them to put it in their ear (hear it), put it on their body or in their voice (tap it or sing it), then put it on their instrument. Works like a charm.

But for real … no one needs to be able to sing beautifully, but hard to show that you’re audiating is you’re not able to match pitch, however shakily.

[BradGuitar]

He goes pretty darn close. He certainly makes me feel illegitimate in comparison ...

haha indeed and I think that’s the case for all of us!

I noticed watching John Pizzarelli clips that he doesn't match pitch on everything, but he's right there on rhythm. Such a great player.

Exactly and a great player indeed.

But would you (we) feel any different about his playing if it turns out he couldn't sing his lines (away from the horn, natch...)?

I wouldn’t… how could it? Because all I can go off is what is coming out of the horn, which speaks for itself. Personally, I think if it does make anyone else feel differently, then they need to get over themselves regardless of how talented they are

[Doug B]

Pretty sure that Oscar Peterson sang what he played.

Doug

[princeplanet]

Pretty sure that Oscar Peterson sang what he played.

Doug

Really? Wow...

[AllanAllen]

Really? Wow...

Dude, have you never listened to an Oscar Peterson live album? All that grunting is him singing along.

[James W]

Depends what it is you're singing. The sheets of sound of late Trane couldn't have been sung - certainly not at the tempo they appear, and also the fact he uses multiphonics!

So long as you can hear it and can play it, does it matter?

[pamosmusic]

Depends what it is you're singing. The sheets of sound of late Trane couldn't have been sung - certainly not at the tempo they appear, and also the fact he uses multiphonics!

So long as you can hear it and can play it, does it matter?

Yeah again … how literal does it need to be?

Could Coltrane sing those lines note for note? Shrug.

Could he sing the structures or outline the extremely dissonant clusters and that sort of thing? You’d have to convince me he couldn’t.

[James W]

Could he sing the structures or outline the extremely dissonant clusters and that sort of thing? You’d have to convince me he couldn’t.

Like I say, I think it's a bit of a moot point. But you're probably right.

[princeplanet]

Dude, have you never listened to an Oscar Peterson live album? All that grunting is him singing along.

Well yeah I have, but that grunting I've heard isn't accurately what's being played. I thought you may have heard something where he's nailing it?

[princeplanet]

Like I say, I think it's a bit of a moot point. But you're probably right.

Hmm, with Trane, my bet is he couldn't really sing even his earlier more lyrical lines. He probably heard music differently, he became more attracted to patterns it seems...?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Mike Longo talks about "grunting pianists" (IIRC Herb Ellis grunted as well when playing) and what he learned from Diz about Kundalini energy in music:

EDIT: As embedding is disabled the timestamp does not work. Impatient go to ca. 55:00 min.

[grahambop]

Chet Baker used to sing bebop solos exactly the same way he would play them on the trumpet.

[mr. beaumont]

It's important to understand that at high tempos, even great players might not be "hearing" every note they play. But they may be hearing "touchstones," kind of a reduced melody version of their line.

Kind of like, I know I'm driving from Chicago to Baltimore and I've planned a stop in Cincinnati, but some other things I do along the way might just happen...

[2bornot2bop]

It’s rare that I’ve ever met a black person who couldn’t sing, or dance.

[Litterick]

Neither Stanley Crouch nor Ron Frankl mention Parker singing in their biographies. Robert Reisner, in Bird: the legend of Charlie Parker, writes (p139), 'Although raised in Catholicism — he mentioned once that he had been a choir boy — he rejected the Church.'

[Bobby Timmons]

Can you sing harmony? No. Yet the greats fluently improvised with that just fine. You don't need to sing something to internalize it. If you like singing and feel it helps you then good on ya. I really hate singing tho and prefer to just focus on linking my mind with my instrument by internalizing it mentally, understanding it correctly, and playing it correctly.

[pamosmusic]

Can you sing harmony? No. Yet the greats fluently improvised with that just fine. You don't need to sing something to internalize it. If you like singing and feel it helps you then good on ya. I really hate singing tho and prefer to just focus on linking my mind with my instrument by internalizing it mentally, understanding it correctly, and playing it correctly.

I mean not to point out the obvious, but you can sing arpeggiated harmonies.

[princeplanet]

I mean not to point out the obvious, but you can sing arpeggiated harmonies.

Sure, but all the same, I think JS makes an excellent point.