"Everything Is Hard On Guitar"--Matteo Mancuso

[ragman1]

Not in the slightest. All that glitters is not gold.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

There’s the blues song form, and the style of expression. Jazzers use that, but also add extra chords. (Until post bop turned that back around quite a bit). Jazzers also use a broader palette of ….. chord scales (groan). Some call it jazz/blues.

Then there is Blues music. Delta blues, country blues, traditional blues whatever you want to call it. BB blues. I remember Downbeat had their record reviews separated as such, at least for a while.

We all know the difference between The Blues and Jazz/Blues, right? Guitar players know the difference better than anyone, or should.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

There's probably some blues-rock guitarist playing thick strings...Stevie Ray Vaughan?

I think he tuned it down a half step, hehe.

[ragman1]

There’s the blues song form, and the style of expression. Jazzers use that, but also add extra chords. (Until post bop turned that back around quite a bit). Jazzers also use a broader pallet of ….. chord scales (groan). Some call it jazz/blues.

Then there is Blues music. Delta blues, country blues, traditional blues whatever you want to call it. BB blues. I remember Downbeat had their record reviews separated as such, at least for a while.

We all know the difference between The Blues and Jazz/Blues, right? Guitar players know the difference better than anyone, or should.

But you see the point. The old black guys, they learned from their environment, they understood what they were doing, they were the real thing, if you like. Then along came people who liked that kind of thing and imitated it.

I'm not saying they weren't playing blues - any kid playing his Am pent on a 12-bar is 'playing the blues', of course - but it wasn't born out of their own experience of oppression. And that tradition was established and continued.

At some point the jazz people got hold of it and did what they did, probably even further from what it was originally. And here we are today, two distinct camps, blues and jazz, played by educated white city folks... you know what it is.

And people like it. It's fairly easy to play, E and A and all that, and obviously some with talent are much better at it than others. But it's no longer really the music that grew out the cotton fields, slavery, segregation, white hatred, and so on. It's just a form of music now.

So when people say 'That Mancuso kid, what does he know about the blues?' it's very derogatory. Not much probably, he's just imitating a style in his own way. Not that there's anything wrong with that, he does it very well.

That's all, really.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

But you see the point. The old black guys, they learned from their environment, they understood what they were doing, they were the real thing, if you like. Then along came people who liked that kind of thing and imitated it.

I'm not saying they weren't playing blues - any kid playing his Am pent on a 12-bar is 'playing the blues', of course - but it wasn't born out of their own experience of oppression. And that tradition was established and continued.

At some point the jazz people got hold of it and did what they did, probably even further from what it was originally. And here we are today, two distinct camps, blues and jazz, played by educated white city folks... you know what it is.

And people like it. It's fairly easy to play, E and A and all that, and obviously some with talent are much better at it than others. But it's no longer really the music that grew out the cotton fields, slavery, segregation, white hatred, and so on. It's just a form of music now.

So when people say 'That Mancuso kid, what does he know about the blues?' it's very derogatory. Not much probably, he's just imitating a style in his own way. Not that there's anything wrong with that, he does it very well.

That's all, really.

Sure. And all music evolves, assuming it’s good enough to sustain in the first place.

With classical music, we’re generally expected to play it in the period correct manner. To do otherwise, barring some convincing exception, is sacrilege. If we want something new sounding, we’d better compose it.

With folk and popular styles, it’s just the opposite. To play it in period correct fashion risks being interpreted as parody. Popular and Trendy are synonyms.

[James W]

But you see the point. The old black guys, they learned from their environment, they understood what they were doing, they were the real thing, if you like. Then along came people who liked that kind of thing and imitated it.

I'm not saying they weren't playing blues - any kid playing his Am pent on a 12-bar is 'playing the blues', of course - but it wasn't born out of their own experience of oppression. And that tradition was established and continued.

At some point the jazz people got hold of it and did what they did, probably even further from what it was originally. And here we are today, two distinct camps, blues and jazz, played by educated white city folks... you know what it is.

And people like it. It's fairly easy to play, E and A and all that, and obviously some with talent are much better at it than others. But it's no longer really the music that grew out the cotton fields, slavery, segregation, white hatred, and so on. It's just a form of music now.

So when people say 'That Mancuso kid, what does he know about the blues?' it's very derogatory. Not much probably, he's just imitating a style in his own way. Not that there's anything wrong with that, he does it very well.

That's all, really.

It's OK to develop a form of music you know, regardless of purported extra-musical influences on said music. You ought to know a Miles Davis quote from his time in Juilliard where the lecturer said something to the effect of blues being the music of poor black people, and Miles replied that he played the blues, though his father was rich. Well, that. So, Miles had money but wasn't immune from racism. Was his experience born from oppression? I am wary about romanticising the past or origins of something for its supposed authenticity, and I am wary about over-simplifying what the blues is or might be about. And there is still plenty of racism and oppression in today's society. But I accept blues as well as being a musical form is also a feeling. Not that long ago I was scrolling through Facebook and stopped to listen to some Joe Bonamassa stuff that was there - this happened more than once actually - and it was just cringe, the songs were just clichéd and bogus. There is more blues feeling i.e quality for me at least in The Five Peace Band playing 'Dr Jackle' but that's obviously jazz and many would consider it being even more far-removed from the origins of the blues than Bonamassa, even though, like I say, the Bonamassa is totally cringe.

[DawgBone]

It's OK to develop a form of music you know, regardless of purported extra-musical influences on said music. You ought to know a Miles Davis quote from his time in Juilliard where the lecturer said something to the effect of blues being the music of poor black people, and Miles replied that he played the blues, though his father was rich. Well, that. So, Miles had money but wasn't immune from racism. Was his experience born from oppression? I am wary about romanticising the past or origins of something for its supposed authenticity, and I am wary about over-simplifying what the blues is or might be about. And there is still plenty of racism and oppression in today's society. But I accept blues as well as being a musical form is also a feeling. Not that long ago I was scrolling through Facebook and stopped to listen to some Joe Bonamassa stuff that was there - this happened more than once actually - and it was just cringe, the songs were just clichéd and bogus. There is more blues feeling i.e quality for me at least in The Five Peace Band playing 'Dr Jackle' but that's obviously jazz and many would consider it being even more far-removed from the origins of the blues than Bonamassa, even though, like I say, the Bonamassa is totally cringe.

Nice post.

It's mostly non blues playing critics who make a race issue out of any of it. None of the great blues players would agree with them. Being discriminated against is just one of a multitude of reasons that would cause someone to have the blues. As you said, blues is a feeling. You can mimic or you can search for your own voice there. For most it's just pentatonic mostly minor, as a standardized part of the guitar curriculun and then it's dispensed with for other stuff.

If it were about race then thats like creating a brown paper bag test of sorts which is an awful thing to do, and also completely inaccurate anyways. I refuse to engage bullshit on that level. Anyone can be good as at any music they put a lot of dues paying into.

Neither is the lawdy lawdy woe is me blues stuff all that common as someone suggested. Most of it is house party music meant for dancing and having a fine time with others and forgetting about your blues.

Then with the downbeat magazine remarks that have made about blacks largely having abandoned blues. NYC or wherever that rag is based out of sounds like it's a long way from the southern US. There are still a lot of black blues acts and performers If you look at some of the more well known, and also some black owned, clubs they are booking a variety of black white and mixed acts. Most people are out of touch with the scene because blues is not really mainstream. I like to keep my ear close to that street tho.

As for your bonamassa remarks, it's kind of how I felt seeing the kid play blues or hearing malmsteens "blues" album. Technically sound but maybe short on feeling and soul. Bonamassa is kind of like Kenny g for jazz. Not most rank and file player's cup of tea but has done a lot to keep the genre in the public eye than it otherwise would have been. That means money for me because it's widening blues audiences because even kids know the name bonamassa so I am glad he is successful.

[ragman1]

It's OK to develop a form of music you know

Of course it is. No reason for good things to go extinct.

Miles replied that he played the blues, though his father was rich.

Well, one out of two's not bad :-)

Billie Holiday and Ray Charles could sing blues well. And, if I'm honest, so could Clapton.

[kris]

What Miles & Co were doing isn't really blues, it's too sophisticated. Blues is a feeling, it's a soul thing. If you have so many musicians like that as a band it dissipates the real feeling and becomes a performance.

They might be playing a twelve-bar and using blues scales and blue notes but that doesn't make it blues.

I can do blues because I mean what I sing. Of course, I'm not black, poor and oppressed and I have an English accent but that doesn't mean it's not blues. Of course it is because the feeling's there. Try this!

That's a lot better for you than playing "jazz'.

[kris]

I like Robben Ford instrumental version:

[kris]

Great Mike:

[James W]

Of course it is. No reason for good things to go extinct.

I'm glad you now apparently think so, considering only a few posts ago on this thread you were saying what Miles Davis was doing 'wasn't really blues'.

[ragman1]

I'm glad you now apparently think so, considering only a few posts ago on this thread you were saying what Miles Davis was doing 'wasn't really blues'.

That wasn't quite all I said, was it? There was a bit more to it than that!

[kris]

It seems to me that it will be better if musicians express themselves by playing an instrument.
Additional verbal statements about a musical performance can often be misunderstood.
Jazz music is a very complex matter.
Personally, I like playing more than writing about playing.

[frabarmus]

I also like James Blood Ulmer (whatever he might be labled as).

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I like Robben Ford instrumental version:

Robben Ford has worked with singer Jimmy Witherspoon for a while ...

... who had done his first recordings with the Jay McShann Big Band only a few years after Charlie Parker had left.

[ragman1]

I always did like Zoot Sims.

[Bobby Timmons]

[ragman1]

Kris has removed his super-slow Cm backing track. Which is a shame because I quite fancied doing it.

Bear in mind, you of critical nature, that I don't call this blues. It's just a 12-bar in C minor :-)

[kris]

If I played like Matteo, I wouldn't be here.

[ragman1]

Oh, how true :-)

[Litterick]

Am I the only one here who finds Mancuso insufferably boring?

[kris]

Am I the only one here who finds Mancuso insufferably boring?

Maybe present your playing, maybe you'll be less boring?

[Litterick]

Maybe present your playing, maybe you'll be less boring?

Maybe you could just back off the insults. My playing is not relevant. And I would not give you the opportunity to insult me further.

You constantly make this forum unpleasant. In future, I will not see your posts.

[kris]

Maybe you could just back off the insults. My playing is not relevant. And I would not give you the opportunity to insult me further.

You constantly make this forum unpleasant. In future, I will not see your posts.

The easiest way to offend a person who is a professional jazz musician.