Barney and Herb. Does jazz guitar get any better?

[coyote-1]

Jazz education is great… and sometimes it’s not. Thing is, it’s not possible to craft a curriculum for something that is being created in that moment. And if it’s been around long enough to be able to generate a formal curriculum, then the major creative energy is already somewhat dissipated.

That’s not the fault of the educators.

[Stringswinger]

He went for two years, right? That’s how long Barry Greene went to Berklee, but whatever. The point was made that Herb was “not schooled”. So that’s wrong, not right. He sought school, he attended school, and dropped out only due to lack of funds.

And 1947 is “new”, huh. OK.

The most important thing is that Herb could play when he arrived. That’s the way it’s supposed to be for every music major, but thankfully there is some major rounding down that occurs for jazz guitar majors (not so for classical). Jazz guitar performance curriculums should probably be extended to six years for most, but then that same funding problem raises its ugly head again. C’est la vie.

The best place to learn to be a good jazz guitarist is on the bandstand, not in the classroom.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Jazz education is great… and sometimes it’s not. Thing is, it’s not possible to craft a curriculum for something that is being created in that moment. And if it’s been around long enough to be able to generate a formal curriculum, then the major creative energy is already somewhat dissipated.

That’s not the fault of the educators.

So you say on a Jazz Ed. website, lol.

Total BS.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

The best place to learn to be a good jazz guitarist is on the bandstand, not in the classroom.

I suppose the best place to learn to be a good lawyer is in the courtroom, eh?

Go ahead, dredge out some more tiresome cliches.

[Stringswinger]

I suppose the best place to learn to be a good lawyer is in the courtroom, eh?

Go ahead, dredge out some more tiresome cliches.

The answer to your question is sort of. Law school does not prepare a lawyer for the practice of law very well at all. But most lawyering does not happen in the Courthouse. In fact, it is my experience and belief that a good lawyer keeps his client out of the courtroom.

Sometimes the reason a cliche exists is because they are based on truth.

It has also been my experience that many well heeled guitar collectors are not very good players, even after years of lessons and university music classes.

[Christian Miller]

Ask any professional jazz musician - you might be able to play out of college but you learn your trade in the trenches. There’s plenty of virtuosos fresh out of college who haven’t a clue how to play the gig.

[jazzshrink]

Ask any professional jazz musician - you might be able to play out of college but you learn your trade in the trenches. There’s plenty of virtuosos fresh out of college who haven’t a clue how to play the gig.

Sounds similar to other professions, no?

[Christian Miller]

Sounds similar to other professions, no?

I would expect so

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Jazz school could be improved for sure. Improv is what needs to be taught more effectively. The gaps are numerous and wide. And then there is application to the guitar. It’s a lot of work to teach it and I think most educators and authors just want to skip big chunks.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

It has also been my experience that many well heeled guitar collectors are not very good players, even after years of lessons and university music classes.

Yeah? Do they overestimate their playing? It’s a good thing that journeymen pros who exist forever in the middle of the pack don’t do likewise. That would be sad.

[Christian Miller]

Jazz school could be improved for sure. Improv is what needs to be taught more effectively. The gaps are numerous and wide. And then there is application to the guitar. It’s a lot of work to teach it and I think most educators and authors just want to skip big chunks.

lol no. Kids can solo for days. That’s not the issue. I’m not sure it ever was? There are believe it or not many other things that go into being a professional jazz musician than being able to shred on Giant Steps, or anything directly to do with the instrument even.

you need to be able to play changes etc before college, really, anyway. College might be able to teach you that stuff, but it really shouldn’t have to.

Anyway, it’s ok, you learn these other lessons by playing gigs with more experienced players. Some again have done this before college. A lot of people I work with seem to have done this early.

This is the main reason of course why one might want to study in NY for example. A talented youngster will be formed by such environments.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah? Do they overestimate their playing? It’s a good thing that journeymen pros who exist forever in the middle of the pack don’t do likewise. That would be sad.

Oh man, if you had any real idea of the amount of dedication and love it took to be merely mediocre at jazz - ‘middle of the pack’ - let alone the BS and sacrifices you have to deal with as any kind of jobbing player - you wouldn’t say that to win internet points lol. Anyway you clearly don’t.

In any case - a being a journeyman has honour. ‘Civilians’ don’t get that kind of recognition in the eyes of other players. Being a pro is hard for reasons that have nothing to do with playing.

Beside which - I can’t really think of ‘journeyman’ being a bad thing? I don’t think I’m up to that level personally, and I’m not sure I’ll ever get there haha. It suggests the kind of experienced, solid, unflappable professionalism that I’d admire and aspire to tbh. Someone who can take care of business, turns up on time unfailingly, plays supportively for everyone, sight reads anything, knows a million tunes and is a great hang with no ego and lots of stories. You need people like that in the world and they are always working.

Not everyone can be the stars the kiddies at music college worship. Probably being a ‘jouneyman’ the sort of thing non musicians think musicians don’t want to be, when in fact many are happy being exactly that and it’s probably one of the most important character traits of being a jobbing musician - being one of the band.

you’ll find the same sort of thing in other professions.

[ronjazz]

I suppose the best place to learn to be a good lawyer is in the courtroom, eh?

Go ahead, dredge out some more tiresome cliches.

Hmmm...which of the great players didn't learn on the bandstand? That would be a very short list. My own experience was 1 semester at Berklee, where I studied with Bill Leavitt. I was already playing 6 nights a week in a jazz organ trio. I learned lots from Bill, but found out early in the semester that I was well ahead of the other students in my class, simply because I knew tunes. Hundreds of tunes, in singers' keys as well as the original keys. 4 sets a night, 6 nights a week for couple of years is the jazz conservatory, as long as your bandmates are better and more experienced than you are.

[Stringswinger]

Hmmm...which of the great players didn't learn on the bandstand? That would be a very short list. My own experience was 1 semester at Berklee, where I studied with Bill Leavitt. I was already playing 6 nights a week in a jazz organ trio. I learned lots from Bill, but found out early in the semester that I was well ahead of the other students in my class, simply because I knew tunes. Hundreds of tunes, in singers' keys as well as the original keys. 4 sets a night, 6 nights a week for couple of years is the jazz conservatory, as long as your bandmates are better and more experienced than you are.

Learning tunes is, IMO, way better knowledge than scales and modes if you want to play music rather than etudes. Joe Pass once opined that learning tunes is the most valuable advice he could give to budding jazz musicians. Ron, you must be an old guy like me if you played 4 sets a night (probably going past midnight) back in the day. I did some of that in the 70's in NYC and Chicago before abandoning music as a career only to take it back up in my 40's after I had amassed enough net worth in other careers to be OK with the mediocre wages that we "middle of the pack" pro musicians earn. My music degree from NYU gave me a solid understanding of classical music and that has helped in my jazz playing, but my experience being on the bandstand with better musicians than me, has helped way more. To be fair, I did study with two wonderful studio musicians (Milt Norman and Allen Hanlon) who imparted quite a bit of useful knowledge as well. Cats often tell me that I sound like me, no matter the guitar or amp that I use. That informs me that I don't suffer from too much jazz education. To me, the cats who have spent years at Berklee, USC or UNT all seem to sound the same.

[pamosmusic]

I learned a lot in college. Didn’t really make sense of it all until I moved to big music town and starting playing with lots of different people.

There was a place for both, in my case.

I was also a classical major with jazz on the side (on paper, though I probably spent more time with jazz in practice). I wouldn’t trade that classical education for anything, I don’t think. Then again I really needed all that education when I was eighteen. I was ………… to use the parlance of this thread, apparently ……… not anywhere close to the middle of the pack, at the time.

Certainly easy to knock jazz education — and lord knows, it needs knocking for sure — but I think I benefited from some jazz education at the time I got it.

Jazz Ed is an easy punching bag that usually deserves to be punched a bit, and I definitely benefited more from being in NY after I graduated, but there’s no way in hell I would’ve been able to tread water there if I hadn’t been schooled up a bit first.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

lol no. Kids can solo for days. That’s not the issue. I’m not sure it ever was? There are believe it or not many other things that go into being a professional jazz musician than being able to shred on Giant Steps, or anything directly to do with the instrument even.

you need to be able to play changes etc before college, really, anyway. College might be able to teach you that stuff, but it really shouldn’t have to.

Anyway, it’s ok, you learn these other lessons by playing gigs with more experienced players. Some again have done this before college. A lot of people I work with seem to have done this early.

This is the main reason of course why one might want to study in NY for example. A talented youngster will be formed by such environments.

You changed the subject there.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Oh man, if you had any real idea of the amount of dedication and love it took to be merely mediocre at jazz - ‘middle of the pack’ - let alone the BS and sacrifices you have to deal with as any kind of jobbing player - you wouldn’t say that to win internet points lol. Anyway you clearly don’t.

In any case - a being a journeyman has honour. ‘Civilians’ don’t get that kind of recognition in the eyes of other players. Being a pro is hard for reasons that have nothing to do with playing.

Beside which - I can’t really think of ‘journeyman’ being a bad thing? I don’t think I’m up to that level personally, and I’m not sure I’ll ever get there haha. It suggests the kind of experienced, solid, unflappable professionalism that I’d admire and aspire to tbh. Someone who can take care of business, turns up on time unfailingly, plays supportively for everyone, sight reads anything, knows a million tunes and is a great hang with no ego and lots of stories. You need people like that in the world and they are always working.

Not everyone can be the stars the kiddies at music college worship. Probably being a ‘jouneyman’ the sort of thing non musicians think musicians don’t want to be, when in fact many are happy being exactly that and it’s probably one of the most important character traits of being a jobbing musician - being one of the band.

you’ll find the same sort of thing in other professions.

I do get it. That’s why people who have even less time to play shouldn’t be disparaged.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Hmmm...which of the great players didn't learn on the bandstand? That would be a very short list. My own experience was 1 semester at Berklee, where I studied with Bill Leavitt. I was already playing 6 nights a week in a jazz organ trio. I learned lots from Bill, but found out early in the semester that I was well ahead of the other students in my class, simply because I knew tunes. Hundreds of tunes, in singers' keys as well as the original keys. 4 sets a night, 6 nights a week for couple of years is the jazz conservatory, as long as your bandmates are better and more experienced than you are.

I didn’t say or even suggest that.

[jameslovestal]

The answer to your question is sort of. Law school does not prepare a lawyer for the practice of law very well at all. But most lawyering does not happen in the Courthouse. In fact, it is my experience and belief that a good lawyer keeps his client out of the courtroom.

Sometimes the reason a cliche exists is because they are based on truth.

It has also been my experience that many well heeled guitar collectors are not very good players, even after years of lessons and university music classes.

What you say related to law school and the actual practicing of law relates to the profession I'm in; the creation and maintenance of software: while one needs the education on the basics of programming and then specific software platforms, that only provides less than half of what ones needs to be a useful addition as part of a software development team.

I know this from experience: wiz kids out of school (and I mean wiz kids in a respectful way), versus a less schooled programmer with experience as part of a development team. Thus, the challenge for me as a director is in how to integrate individuals that bring in different skill sets and experience, into a cohesive team.

E.g. the wiz kid bring in some great new ideas, but they are only useful in specific context as it relates to the software being developed. It can be challenging to convince the wiz kid his idea isn't being used, in this case, not because it isn't a great idea, but because it isn't the best solution given the context.

[ThatRhythmMan]

What you say related to law school and the actual practicing of law relates to the profession I'm in; the creation and maintenance of software: while one needs the education on the basics of programming and then specific software platforms, that only provides less than half of what ones needs to be a useful addition as part of a software development team.

I know this from experience: wiz kids out of school (and I mean wiz kids in a respectful way), versus a less schooled programmer with experience as part of a development team. Thus, the challenge for me as a director is in how to integrate individuals that bring in different skill sets and experience, into a cohesive team.

E.g. the wiz kid bring in some great new ideas, but they are only useful in specific context as it relates to the software being developed. It can be challenging to convince the wiz kid his idea isn't being used, in this case, not because it isn't a great idea, but because it isn't the best solution given the context.

The same is true for lots of other fields. For example med school provides a lot of framework, but does not put one in the position to practice any field of medicine just because the MD degree has been earned. It can take many years beyond school to become proficient. In some specialties, maybe most, a considerable amount of progression even happens after residency and not just because most fields continue to advance.


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[RLetson]

I find myself echoing some of the sentiments above. But I'll add my bit anyway:

I have acquired two pro-level skill sets in my life: teaching (English) and freelance writing. Both were rooted in basic skills acquired in undergrad and grad school, and while I suppose I could have managed either one without my formal humanities education (the necessary certification of a doctorate to one side), I would have had to have been much smarter and more disciplined than I actually am to get there without the foundation of college and grad school. (FWIW, I never took an education or pedagogy course--or a writing course before I had to teach one.) I suspect getting to pro-level jazz-player status is not unlike that. Performing music (or teaching poetry or writing features) is a skill best developed in the doing--though you really need some fundamental idea of what you're doing before you get in front of an audience.

BTW, Marc--I recall hearing your playing at Djangofests years ago, and if that's "middle of the pack" work, I'm going to sell my guitars and go raise goats. (But if you're talking about money and fame and such, I get it.)

Actually, I should probably seriously consider goat-raising anyway--I hear they can really keep the grass short.

[ThatRhythmMan]

I find myself echoing some of the sentiments above. But I'll add my bit anyway:

I have acquired two pro-level skill sets in my life: teaching (English) and freelance writing. Both were rooted in basic skills acquired in undergrad and grad school, and while I suppose I could have managed either one without my formal humanities education (the necessary certification of a doctorate to one side), I would have had to have been much smarter and more disciplined than I actually am to get there without the foundation of college and grad school. (FWIW, I never took an education or pedagogy course--or a writing course before I had to teach one.) I suspect getting to pro-level jazz-player status is not unlike that. Performing music (or teaching poetry or writing features) is a skill best developed in the doing--though you really need some fundamental idea of what you're doing before you get in front of an audience.

BTW, Marc--I recall hearing your playing at Djangofests years ago, and if that's "middle of the pack" work, I'm going to sell my guitars and go raise goats. (But if you're talking about money and fame and such, I get it.)

Actually, I should probably seriously consider goat-raising anyway--I hear they can really keep the grass short.

Goats will also eat your trees and shrubs if they can get to them. AND they won’t pay the bills. Ask me how I know.




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[Stringswinger]

BTW, Marc--I recall hearing your playing at Djangofests years ago, and if that's "middle of the pack" work, I'm going to sell my guitars and go raise goats. (But if you're talking about money and fame and such, I get it.)

Actually, I should probably seriously consider goat-raising anyway--I hear they can really keep the grass short.

Thanks for the kind words. Compared to cats like Barney and Herb, I am "middle of the pack" for sure and being "local talent" has been a great ride for me, for which I feel blessed. Every week, I am paid hundreds of dollars to play my guitar. I made a LOT more money when I practiced law or was in the Food and Beverage industry, but alas, I am at my happiest playing music. It is my "right livelihood".

Please don't give up on jazz guitar. Back in 2007 when I did a couple of shows with Jazz guitar legend Larry Coryell (RIP), he imparted some sage advice. I mentioned that I was in awe of his playing and that playing with him was a bit intimidating to me. Larry replied that we are all climbing the same hill and that nobody gets to the top. He told me that cats like him get higher than most, but we should all strive to get as high on that hill as we can, as that is what it is all about.

Yep, sage advice indeed.

[Christian Miller]

Well that’s it really isn’t it?

[coyote-1]

So you say on a Jazz Ed. website, lol.

Total BS.

Which part do you consider “total BS”?

Was there a jazz curriculum in 1910? Was there a college bebop curriculum in 1946? Was the Coltrane harmonic concept being taught before he created it?
we all know the answer: NO.

The other part: by the time a curriculum is able to be crafted for an idiom, the major creative energy of that idiom is largely spent. We can even trace this back to Miles and Coltrane et al, who all for years tried to make new instances of the modal half-tone modulation heard in So What.
So then. When I play Footprints with my band tomorrow, am I breaking new ground in jazz? When a teacher shows students ways to navigate that, is wild creativity occurring?

Don’t get me wrong. I love jazz and love playing it. And I’m teaching harmony to a few students, and we are all learning in the process. But is it dazzlingly creative stuff? The words of Zappa come to mind: jazz is not dead, but it smells funny. He said that decades ago.

Think I’ll go improvise over Rhythm Changes for awhile.