Gilad Hekselman playing counterpoint. Tone and technique

[RJVB]

he will fret the two treble notes on the same string rather than across the string as a classical player might (if this makes sense). Imo this makes the top line sound more cleanly melodic if that makes any sense. It also simplifies the right hand challenges a little.

Both string changes and position changes can interrupt a melodic line (in slightly different ways of course) so it's a bit pick your poison. JSB is a bit infamous for writing keyboard parts for singers, string and wind instruments - meaning provide as many logical opportunities to breathe, shift or change strings as he could.

[Christian Miller]

Both string changes and position changes can interrupt a melodic line (in slightly different ways of course) so it's a bit pick your poison. JSB is a bit infamous for writing keyboard parts for singers, string and wind instruments - meaning provide as many logical opportunities to breathe, shift or change strings as he could.

you aren’t kidding. This thing was my bete noir. I can’t believe I actually sang it public once, it’s a wonder I didn’t go blue and pass out. A bit easier in baroque pitch.

re polyphonic legato on guitar, according to his student and JGO member Don Oz, Pasquale Grasso’s advice is ‘hang on for dear life’

[Litterick]

perhaps "flat wound" strings would eliminate the dreaded string scraping...its nice for coffee house folk music..adds a rustic quality..but not so for JSB..

I could not bear it. Bach with a chorus of otters.

[RJVB]

you aren’t kidding. This thing was my bete noir.

No, I wasn't. I think the only non-keyboardists I've rarely heard complain were double-reed players with sufficient mastery of circular breathing (of course many of them *always* go at least red in the face when playing )
As a violinist I was relatively well off ... but then again I realised quite early that things like the Sonatas & Partitas are best put on a beautiful, period-correct stand as a facsimile of MM's elegant engraving, to look at, sometimes turn a page ... and marvel at how beautiful it could sound.

How's that for a pure, clean tone

[Christian Miller]

No, I wasn't. I think the only non-keyboardists I've rarely heard complain were double-reed players with sufficient mastery of circular breathing (of course many of them *always* go at least red in the face when playing )
As a violinist I was relatively well off ... but then again I realised quite early that things like the Sonatas & Partitas are best put on a beautiful, period-correct stand as a facsimile of MM's elegant engraving, to look at, sometimes turn a page ... and marvel at how beautiful it could sound.

How's that for a pure, clean tone

Read it on an iPad grandad. Better still get the music injected directly into your eyeballs.

[Gabor]

Yes, I was thinking I list Boyer together Corea and Mehldau but finally decided not to. The reason a) His Vivaldi with his fellow is almost there, but that almost counts. b) While agreeing in his unique talent, he in not a jazz guitarist in the meaning as Wes, ......, Rosenwinkel, Hekselman, Kreisberg, etc.

Anyway, I did not deny exceptions could exist. I was arguing if one listen 1000s hours of jazz then it will obvious how fake a classical musician plays jazz, and vica versa.

[Gabor]

Can we focus on the topic? There are other great places to talk about barroque instruments and talk about "purifying souls"...

Please try to add relevant information to the topic.

...guys never focus on the topic here. First I thought this is unpolite and against the ethiqutte, direspect, etc. Later I got used to it, and accepted as actually a good thing :-)

[Gabor]

@Gabor it’s hard to know sometimes what context to take this stuff in.

I think you are right of course regarding performance but I’m not sure that’s what Gilad or David is doing here. It’s just shedding really. So why share it?

You could ask the same thing about people performing solo transcriptions with the record. This is very popular on YouTube. I’ve come to the conclusion that other players find it interesting and inspiring. There is some interest in how the sausage is made. David’s videos are interesting to me as a window into the learning process for someone at an elite music school. Gilad also teaches a lot and this video to me had an aspect of demonstration to it.

I don’t see myself performing classical works in public but I can see how it could advance my playing and musicianship and I might also end up doing a YouTube video about it.

otoh this is… hmmm. How do we take this?

Despite how bad it is as an example of classical guitar playing, I kind of enjoy how Kurt it is

I think there’s a space that could open up for jazz musicians playing classical works in the context of their aesthetic. If anything I would tend to say jazz players should put more of themselves into these works and see where that gets them.

Otoh simply playing the notes of a two part invention on guitar is a real technical accomplishment that I suppose this is the main thing.

That is a valid point. However my thought apply to the OP, in the meaning Gilad is terrible both soundwise and especally as music.

I agree with the sharing, but we must differentiate between amateurs and artists. I consider Rosenwinker, Kreisberg as a musician/artist, so if they perform something I expect it to be music. If an amateur (or even a professional) plays along with Wes that is a way other use case, we could consider that sharing.

***

Kurt Rosenwinkel is exceptional musician. Sad he is how underrated in this forum. His Bach rendition seems convincing for the few first bars, then quickly became disturbing. Falls apart to few bar pieces without any meaningful flow.

[James W]

b) While agreeing in his unique talent, he in not a jazz guitarist in the meaning as Wes, ......, Rosenwinkel, Hekselman, Kreisberg, etc..

There are differences between the people you list too - everyone has their own style and musical strengths. Boyer is who he is, and while not known for being a 'post-bop' player, I personally don't make value judgements on what subgenre of jazz a player supposedly does or doesn't belong to - rather, I prefer to see things on an individual case-by-case basis, if that makes sense. I mean, I am not very concerned for categorising music and ranking it on that basis.

But I think this isn't the first time this topic has arisen on this forum, nor others...

[Gabor]

Indeed, Gilad is very fluent, which is more and more seems to be a base requirement amongst "modern" players, at least compared to the "old cats".

I do not know much about the right hand, especially about hybrid picking, so leave that for those who are more familiar with that.
However I think the "secret" in this fluency is in the synchronization between the two hands, and the left-hand's movement preciosity, especially leaving the finger fretting the string as long as possible.

The question still remains, how to achieve this? Maybe practice finger exercises very slowly (80?) and solely focus on left hand finger stay fretting as long as it possible. Also *listen* the outcoming sound, and focus on improving its quality, instead of speed. They say the speed will come automatically as side product (never happened to me :-), but worth trying )

***

And here is a much more concrete observation based on the video:

Gilad frets the string very close to the fret, almost on the fret. He does this with all the four fingers, and over 90% percent of the notes.
This is not a coincidence, neither is a random habit. I practice this from the very beginning, now I am doing this automatically not even noticing it. This makes the sound "nicer", not the note itself, but the *ending of the note*.

Fret a note with on B or E string any finger, between half way of the frets, or more closer to the headstock, pick the note, then end the note by lifting up your finger. No matter how fast are you doing this, there will be a non desirable sound artifact when the note ends. Try the very same now fretting the note very close, almost on the fret: no artifact, the sound ends nicely. This applies btw to the chords too. Most time a the old plain 9b chord is the victim of this. Say C9b on the third fret, C, E, Bb, Db. The Db on the string B is usually fretted in the middle of the fret or even more, to direction to the headstock. When that note ends, it is ugly most of the time.

[RJVB]

I do not know much about the right hand, especially about hybrid picking, so leave that for those who are more familiar with that.

Most of his hand isn't visible in the video anyway.

especially leaving the finger fretting the string as long as possible.

The question still remains, how to achieve this?

Christian has a thread about portamento - or had because I can't find it anymore?!

Fretting at the right location is indeed important, and he seems to be doing it with a certain decisiveness (part of the fingernoise I heard resembles the sound of the string hitting the fret).

I can't listen to the video right now to check for this, but one component of a clean acoustic sound in music with multiple voices is to control which notes and even which sympathetic resonances are allowed to keep sounding. This too is something where left/right hand co-ordination is crucial.

[Christian Miller]

Partimento, not portamento lol

[Christian Miller]

That said the Bach inventions are very relevant to the study of partimento. The Fenaroli partimenti include puzzles in imitative counterpoint and certainly lend themselves to realisation in that texture. As quite short pieces with relatively simple forms, the bass could be used as a partimento exercise in itself. Anyhoo.

[RJVB]

That said the Bach inventions are very relevant to the study of partimento.

Or maybe the technique is very relevant to the playing of pieces like Bach's Inventions?

[Christian Miller]

Or maybe the technique is very relevant to the playing of pieces like Bach's Inventions?

Partimento isn’t a playing technique? Not sure if I’m with you

[ccroft]

Back to Gilad's right hand: one of the challenges of hybrid is getting the flat-picked notes to sound like the finger picked ones. It can be difficult to get an equal attack. It's been a bit of a challenge for me at least. He has that mastered. It may be why he's got the plectrum over the finger-board.

Invention 4 (well all of them actually) is full of elegant contrapuntal realisations of standard backcycling progressions, I V Is, cadences and VI7 ii V Is and things that you can basically graft them into jazz standards like some kind of horrible mad scientist. Which is one thing I’ve been doing.

Thanks for the not-mad-at-theory info on chord changes in Bach inventions. I'll look our for that after I learn more about 'backcycling progressions'. (i'm actually thinking of more dysfunctional applications of counterpoint, madman that i am :-)

[Christian Miller]

Thanks for the not-mad-at-theory info on chord changes in Bach inventions. I'll look our for that after I learn more about 'backcycling progressions'. (i'm actually thinking of more dysfunctional applications of counterpoint, madman that i am :-)

Well in my continuance of the anti-theory agenda,
merry Christmas

Bach with chord symbols. Some music professor somewhere is weeping no doubt.



i can spot a mistake or two, but I’ll leave that as an exercise for others lol.

I’d put it in one stave guitar music, but tbh I’m finding it less annoying to read this way. (Schemata people will note I wrote Monte instead of Fonte, duh.)

[Peter C]

I "figure out" bass clef as against reading it, but that's great Christian, thanks a lot. Now I just need to find the time.

[Marinero]

There are differences between the people you list too - everyone has their own style and musical strengths. Boyer is who he is, and while not known for being a 'post-bop' player, I personally don't make value judgements on what subgenre of jazz a player supposedly does or doesn't belong to - rather, I prefer to see things on an individual case-by-case basis, if that makes sense. I mean, I am not very concerned for categorising music and ranking it on that basis.

But I think this isn't the first time this topic has arisen on this forum, nor others...

Hi, J,
Very nice playing unlike the machine-gun(Geez . . . he plays fast, mom!) video presented earlier. Antoine, in this piece, plays very much in the vein of Roland Dyens and this particular music doesn't need a genre-name. I would simply call it contemporary Classical Guitar. As a technical observation for other CG's with no intended disparagement of his playing or sound, he must be playing lighter gauge strings since there is significant string wobble on the basses during the performance.
Marinero

[Marinero]

"Gilad frets the string very close to the fret, almost on the fret. He does this with all the four fingers, and over 90% percent of the notes.
This is not a coincidence, neither is a random habit. I practice this from the very beginning, now I am doing this automatically not even noticing it. This makes the sound "nicer", not the note itself, but the *ending of the note*." Gabor

Yes G,
It is taught from the very beginning of a CG's study since it not only gives a cleaner, more precise sound but also is a necessary ingredient for increasing overall speed as the student builds skills.
Marinero

[Christian Miller]

If you haven’t spent time refining the fretting accuracy of your left hand you might find it a bit of a revelation.

[Christian Miller]

I "figure out" bass clef as against reading it, but that's great Christian, thanks a lot. Now I just need to find the time.

is that what ‘figured bass’ is then? Boom ching. I’m here all week.

[James W]

Hi, J,
Very nice playing unlike the machine-gun(Geez . . . he plays fast, mom!) video presented earlier. Antoine, in this piece, plays very much in the vein of Roland Dyens and this particular music doesn't need a genre-name. I would simply call it contemporary Classical Guitar. As a technical observation for other CG's with no intended disparagement of his playing or sound, he must be playing lighter gauge strings since there is significant string wobble on the basses during the performance.
Marinero

I would call it jazz since he's playing a Bill Evans tune and improvising. Bit of swing-feel in there too, and some - shock horror! - fast passages. But yeah doesn't need a genre-name or something...

His sense of harmony is fantastic - like Julian Lage his lines evince quite a knowledge of classical music.

[Marinero]

I would call it jazz since he's playing a Bill Evans tune and improvising. Bit of swing-feel in there too, and some - shock horror! - fast passages. But yeah doesn't need a genre-name or something...

His sense of harmony is fantastic - like Julian Lage his lines evince quite a knowledge of classical music.

So, J,
I nearly forgot the above post. So, based on your above definition of "Jazz"-- "playing" a Jazz tune "and improvising," how would you describe a modern Classical guitarist like Jason Vieaux? He's playing a Jazz tune and "improvising?" Is he a Jazzer?
Marinero

Or, how about Fabio Zanon's: "Prelude for Guitar: "Eyes of a Recollection?"

[James W]

So, J,
I nearly forgot the above post. So, based on your above definition of "Jazz"-- "playing" a Jazz tune "and improvising," how would you describe a modern Classical guitarist like Jason Vieaux? He's playing a Jazz tune and "improvising?" Is he a Jazzer?
Marinero


Or, how about Fabio Zanon's: "Prelude for Guitar: "Eyes of a Recollection?"

Marinero, the Vieaux performance was nice as a kind of embellished arrangement but didn't evince at least to my ears any kind of language or lines that you get in the Boyer. The Fabio Zanon sounds like a modern-ish classical guitar piece.

But it's not interesting after a certain to point to categorise a piece of music, still less so an artist ...