Mary Halvorson

[neatomic]

...Don Cherry told stories. Beautiful, unkempt stories.

the greatest



cheers

[takauya]

This I have to respectfully disagree with. I think Ornette told stories and Sonny Sharrock told stories and Don Cherry told stories. Beautiful, unkempt stories.

I agree but Ornette and Don Cherry are not free jazz. I've never really could understand why they are considered to be free jazz though. Even his album "Free Jazz" doesn't sound like free jazz and I'm sure he didn't mean that. I'm also kinda surprised that someone called Mary's music as free jazz.

[rmpmcdermott]

I'm also kinda surprised that someone called Mary's music as free jazz.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here. That her music isn’t free jazz?

I don’t want to get too wrapped up in labels here. I just dig her music. And I think she tells wonderful stories with it even if they aren’t traditional. If you don’t dig it, that’s cool too, man.

[neatomic]

I agree but Ornette and Don Cherry are not free jazz. I've never really could understand why they are considered to be free jazz though. Even his album "Free Jazz" doesn't sound like free jazz and I'm sure he didn't mean that. I'm also kinda surprised that someone called Mary's music as free jazz.

you are not understanding the impact of time..in the 1950's that was considered way out!!..all that esp label 60's free jazz and trane and ayler...that seems so understandably clear & magnificent now...that was like aliens transmitting from outer space back then...sun ra...roland kirk...ornette...cherry...billy higgins and ed blackwell on drums..these guys were trailblazers!

and they were out and they were free...playing jazz other than bop or dixie

cheers

[Litterick]

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here. That her music isn’t free jazz?

I don’t want to get too wrapped up in labels here. I just dig her music. And I think she tells wonderful stories with it even if they aren’t traditional. If you don’t dig it, that’s cool too, man.

I dig it, a lot, but it is not free. Her work is composed and structured. She forms bands of musicians who play parts, in turn, in pieces that have beginnings, middles and ends. Her Code Girl album contains songs, with lyrics. Her collaboration with Bill Frisell, The Maid With The Flaxen Hair, pays tribute to the songs of Johnny Smith. She is not another Sonny Sharrock.

[takauya]

you are not understanding the impact of time..in the 1950's that was considered way out!!..all that esp label 60's free jazz and trane and ayler...that seems so understandably clear & magnificent now...that was like aliens transmitting from outer space back then...sun ra...roland kirk...ornette...cherry...billy higgins and ed blackwell on drums..these guys were trailblazers!

and they were out and they were free...playing jazz other than bop or dixie

cheers

Yes, yes. I can guess they had some impact at that time, but now it's 2019! How could you still even hear them as free jazz!? It's impossible.

[takauya]

I dig it, a lot, but it is not free. Her work is composed and structured. She forms bands of musicians who play parts, in turn, in pieces that have beginnings, middles and ends. Her Code Girl album contains songs, with lyrics. Her collaboration with Bill Frisell, The Maid With The Flaxen Hair, pays tribute to the songs of Johnny Smith. She is not another Sonny Sharrock.

Agreed! I wonder some people might think not traditional = free jazz? If so the definition is different from mine. My free jazz is Cecil Taylor and such.

Ok, I'll add a little more. Her playing is free to some extent, but not so much that I'd call it free playing. Not at all. Her music is not free at all. It is obvious.

[takauya]

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here. That her music isn’t free jazz?

I don’t want to get too wrapped up in labels here. I just dig her music. And I think she tells wonderful stories with it even if they aren’t traditional. If you don’t dig it, that’s cool too, man.

Honestly I don't dig her music that much, but I like free stuff in general and I really like Ornette's music, which I don't consider it as free jazz at all.

[neatomic]

Yes, yes. I can guess they had some impact at that time, but now it's 2019! How could you still even hear them as free jazz!? It's impossible.

well whatever you want to label it..i hope you can still dig it...vintage has nothing to do with great music..it's timeless

ornette didnt play off chord changes..that was truly free-ing...even bird reworked all the standard changes

don cherry spent years way out in the zone...living music...art ensemble of chicago!!

check the roots man ..call it what u wanna

cheers

[cosmic gumbo]

When it comes to jazz, folks easily get confused with free and avant garde. I don't lose sleep over it.

[takauya]

well whatever you want to label it..i hope you can still dig it...vintage has nothing to do with great music..it's timeless

ornette didnt play off chord changes..that was truly free-ing...even bird reworked all the standard changes

don cherry spent years way out in the zone...living music...!!

check the roots man ..call it what u wanna

cheers

I think you are talking from the perspective of the past, and I'm talking from the perspective of now. I think the context of this whole conversation is from the point of now if I'm not mistaken. And also I'm not talking about categorizing music but its content.
I guess you are from the generation that bebop was still dominating the scene, but I'm not. Apparently we hear things differently, which of course is fine.
To be honest none of the guys you mentioned sound like free to me at this point. Even late Trane, Interstellar Space, which I really like. Mainly because so many other guys after them have played like those free jazz guys in the past so it's already became standard. Now, it's just a style of playing called "free" and it's not free at all if you know what I mean. I know it's very subjective.
Bebop used to be a radical form of music, right? Now, it's not. The same thing.

[rmpmcdermott]

I dig it, a lot, but it is not free. Her work is composed and structured. She forms bands of musicians who play parts, in turn, in pieces that have beginnings, middles and ends. Her Code Girl album contains songs, with lyrics. Her collaboration with Bill Frisell, The Maid With The Flaxen Hair, pays tribute to the songs of Johnny Smith. She is not another Sonny Sharrock.

That's all totally fair and I agree about the records you mention (love The Maid With The Flaxen Hair), but she has done plenty of free improvisation as well. I shouldn't have implied that all of her work is free, so if that's what came across then my apologies.

[rmpmcdermott]

When it comes to jazz, folks easily get confused with free and avant garde. I don't lose sleep over it.

I think this is exactly right, and it's something I'm guilty of, even in this thread. I sometimes use the words interchangeably and that's not correct.

[princeplanet]

At least that swings.

haha! Post of the year!

[neatomic]

I think you are talking from the perspective of the past, and I'm talking from the perspective of now. I think the context of this whole conversation is from the point of now if I'm not mistaken. And also I'm not talking about categorizing music but its content.
I guess you are from the generation that bebop was still dominating the scene, but I'm not. Apparently we hear things differently, which of course is fine.
To be honest none of the guys you mentioned sound like free to me at this point. Even late Trane, Interstellar Space, which I really like. Mainly because so many other guys after them have played like those free jazz guys in the past so it's already became standard. Now, it's just a style of playing called "free" and it's not free at all if you know what I mean. I know it's very subjective.
Bebop used to be a radical form of music, right? Now, it's not. The same thing.

actually thats not my generation, but i did make a point to go back and study the roots...one doesn't have to be 120 years old to dig louis armstrong hot fives does one?? haha

i don't understand how the guys that created free playing are not as free as the guys today who are merely replicating them?? ...the modern players themselves credit & absorbed the past greats

the only exceptions might be electric guitar players..who have so many options as far as pedals and gear these days, that they can go places guitarists of the past could not..sonically anyway

good thread

cheers

[Sam Sherry]

At 2:14

It's really tricky and I think that it doesn't always sound good . . . you need to be OK with failing. Maybe you play something and it really doesn't sound good. So OK, so you learn something and you can try again. But if you don't experiment when you're trying to accomplish something, you're probably not going to get there.

That's some no-nonsense wisdom right there. Those are words I can live by. As an advanced-beginner jazz guitarist, it's encouraging to hear someone at the highest level of the art and craft say that.

[rmpmcdermott]

At 2:14

That's some no-nonsense wisdom right there. Those are words I can live by. As an advanced-beginner jazz guitarist, it's encouraging to hear someone at the highest level of the art and craft say that.

Hell yes!

[neatomic]

btw- a good point of entry for halvorson for the uninitiated or unconvinced...

mary halvorson octet-away with you...2016

cheers

[Litterick]

That's all totally fair and I agree about the records you mention (love The Maid With The Flaxen Hair), but she has done plenty of free improvisation as well. I shouldn't have implied that all of her work is free, so if that's what came across then my apologies.

Yes, you are right. I should not have implied that none of her work is free.

[rmpmcdermott]

btw- a good point of entry for halvorson for the unitiated or unconvinced...

mary halvorson octet-away with you...2016

cheers

This is a gorgeous record.

[Hep To The Jive]

Have you noticed, Mary Halvorson threads always bring the best in us!

[mr. beaumont]

She pisses people off. I like that.

[JGinNJ]

She pisses people off. I like that.

Well, yeah, I had hopes for the recording with Bill Frisell, but after hearing part of it, I think Johnny Smith is rolling over in his grave.

[rmpmcdermott]

Well, yeah, I had hopes for the recording with Bill Frisell, but after hearing part of it, I think Johnny Smith is rolling over in his grave.

I dunno. I think he might have liked it. I certainly thought it was a beautiful tribute.