Jazz Shredders?

[christianm77]

Kreisberg's way of avoiding this is to play a lot of broken up stuff, but his running 8th lines still all start on the beat:

[pcsanwald]

I would agree with every word.

Ultimately I think guitar has got to be guitar. But that’s not way we can’t take stuff that happens to work. Travis picking was inspired by stride for instance.... couldn’t think of a more guitaristic thing though!

I also agree with every word. the person I'd add to the list that I find astonishing is Metheny: his level of relaxation at even very fast tempos is incredible to me.

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

Few, if any, economy players have IMO as good a swing feel as Joe Pass, Charlie Christian, George Benson etc. That type of playing can sound a bit boneless.

Really? I hear nothing unusual in that clip. Joe's a great player but there's so many players that sound equally good on tempi like this. Or better even. My list is long and reads like a who's who in jazz guitar. Heck, I know many good players that are not very known that can do this pretty well.

What am I missing here?

DB

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

OMG *love* MVIs playing, although I don't think of him as a shredder. (He may very well be, guess I should go back and listen for that.) I just love his musical, melodic ideas, his phrasing, and his tone.

I never said MVI was a shredder. The word "shredder" has no place in jazz and frankly, I find it idiotic to even use it in a jazz context. It suggests that playing fast is an outside category or something freakish. It hardly is.

Like I said earlier, ALL my favourite players can play fast and some incredibly so. Joe and Tal did it a long time ago but the contemporary ones are often even faster if needs be.

MVI, JVR, Doug Raney, Pat Martino, GB, Bireli (nobody on the planet is faster), Ulf Wakenius, Andreas Oberg, Frank Gambale, Mark Whitfield etc. etc. I could go on.

DB

[joe2758]

The word "shredder" has no place in jazz and frankly, I find it idiotic to even use it in a jazz context.

damn shots fired

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

damn shots fired

Not sure what you mean.

It's like when somebody asks me if I play lead or rhythm guitar. Huh?

Some terms do not translate well to jazz territory. No offense to the OP.

DB

[christianm77]

Really? I hear nothing unusual in that clip. Joe's a great player but there's so many players that sound equally good on tempi like this. Or better even. My list is long and reads like a who's who in jazz guitar. Heck, I know many good players that are not very known that can do this pretty well.

What am I missing here?

DB

I don't think I was really talking specifically about that clip at that point. I think a lot of pickers could handle that tempo just fine, including myself, but I'm not sure if that many guitarists would be able to break away from that downbeat thing I was talking about.

Perhaps you've got some ideas?

[christianm77]

I never said MVI was a shredder. The word "shredder" has no place in jazz and frankly, I find it idiotic to even use it in a jazz context. It suggests that playing fast is an outside category or something freakish. It hardly is.

Like I said earlier, ALL my favourite players can play fast and some incredibly so. Joe and Tal did it a long time ago but the contemporary ones are often even faster if needs be.

MVI, JVR, Doug Raney, Pat Martino, GB, Bireli (nobody on the planet is faster), Ulf Wakenius, Andreas Oberg, Frank Gambale, Mark Whitfield etc. etc. I could go on.

DB

What a grump!

But yes, I agree, and know what you mean. It's really not about that, of course.

(Not ALL my favourite players can rinse top tempos like that, but they all have a way of coping with fast tempos. Something I find it more interesting to hear someone without super picking chops do it, like Jim Hall.)

OTOH it's a bit of fun. Actually I see nothing wrong in someone who might not perhaps be able to hear jazz the way you can getting sucked in by watching the sheer athleticism of accomplished jazz guitarists. I know it was part of it for me early on.

Now I'll get of your lawn. :-)

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

I don't think I was really talking specifically about that clip at that point. I think a lot of pickers could handle that tempo just fine, including myself, but I'm not sure if that many guitarists would be able to break away from that downbeat thing I was talking about. Perhaps you've got some ideas?

Ah I see. Yeah that's a different thing alltogether. Guitarists tend to sound like well ... guitarists. I am guilty of the same thing. I can handle fast tempi pretty well but I tend to sound like a guitarist and not like Bird.

But then, I don't think there's a single guitarist on the planet that sounds like Bird. It just cannot be done.

One of my best viewed vids is where I am playing a few Bird solos note by note in real time over the original recording. I could reproduce it but that's about it. What Bird is playing is totally unguitaristic and I could never ever create that myself.

I sometimes read stuff in which people say that a particular guitarist plays like Bird. I usually take that with a grain of salt. Truth is I have never really heard a guitarist that REALLY phrased like Bird. Or sounded anything like him. Is that bad? Not really ...

DB

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

What a grump!

Grumpy? Heck yes. I can't play much at the moment. Typing about guitar is the best I can do for now. And it ain't the real thing by far.

DB

[christianm77]

Hope you get back to it soon man, tends to improve my mood

[pcsanwald]

Kreisberg's way of avoiding this is to play a lot of broken up stuff, but his running 8th lines still all start on the beat

you know, a lot of Bud Powell's stuff is more on the beat than I really realized. yesterday I was playing a sessions and we were playing "crazeology" and I was struck with how downbeat centric it is, vs something like "moose the mooche". even "celia" has a lot of phrases where the downbeat is very clear, in the sense that the phrase marcates the downbeat in a way that you don't often find in bird tunes.

[RayS]

Resurrecting this great thread........so many fantastic players I'd never heard of....


Ray

[starjasmine]

I never said MVI was a shredder.

It's the name of the thread.

[Doug B]

Nice to hear Mike Stern playing without his pseudo chorus!

[Bobby Timmons]

Noone shredded jazz harder than Jimmy Smith lol.

[RayS]

this was and still is a top Jazz shredder..

Ray

[RayS]

What a grump!

I find it more interesting to hear someone without super picking chops do it, like Jim Hall.)

Interesting ....look at around 24 minutes..

Ray

[sgosnell]

Sadly, Pat Martino is not still shredding, at least on earth. He has passed away.

[RayS]

Sadly, Pat Martino is not still shredding, at least on earth. He has passed away.

It was meant to reflect on his recordings...which ARE still with us.....I picked "Impressions" from 1974 because when I first heard that (then) I was totally blown...I mean I had been honing my chops for near a decade and thought I was doing ok when back to back I hear this and see joe pass live solo performance and that was it !! . I mean no way I could reach this level of musicianship.. Life took me somewhere else and now 41 years later I rediscover my lost passion..and Impressions is right back where I left off.... Still blown away by it though....

Ray

[Fortune]

I always have loved Jack's tone on this tune.

[princeplanet]

this was and still is a top Jazz shredder..

Ray

I don't think of Martino as a "shredder", in the sense that he wasn't playing quick lines for the sake of showing off any technical ability. His outstanding and perhaps unmatched ability was to be able to play complex yet melodic long lines, quick enough to be exciting and a little mesmerizing, but not so quick as to not enable you to really hear his ideas develop. Wes and GB had/has similar ability to engage you with speed, sophistication and groove but Martino could do it all day long and still surprise you.

Sure there have been a ton of players since the above mentioned greats, many with greater dexterity or sheer velocity. But IMO none with any accompanying high levels of sophistication and groove. I'll add another parameter - "taste". Most of us here are older guys, so we all get it, but if you're like me, it took a while to really appreciate what the true greats were doing. I can remember listing to Martino in my 20's and thinking "meh".... and go back to listening to McLaughlin or Dimeola or which ever new speesdter was making waves that month. But of course now its the total reverse ! Listening to someone shredding now seems about as musical as listening to someone type fast, sometimes less so! I mean I can do it and it's fun, but I never want to subject anyone to have to listen to it!

[RayS]

I don't think of Martino as a "shredder", in the sense that he wasn't playing quick lines for the sake of showing off any technical ability. His outstanding and perhaps unmatched ability was to be able to play complex yet melodic long lines, quick enough to be exciting and a little mesmerizing, but not so quick as to not enable you to really hear his ideas develop. Wes and GB had/has similar ability to engage you with speed, sophistication and groove but Martino could do it all day long and still surprise you.

Sure there have been a ton of players since the above mentioned greats, many with greater dexterity or sheer velocity. But IMO none with any accompanying high levels of sophistication and groove. I'll add another parameter - "taste". Most of us here are older guys, so we all get it, but if you're like me, it took a while to really appreciate what the true greats were doing. I can remember listing to Martino in my 20's and thinking "meh".... and go back to listening to McLaughlin or Dimeola or which ever new speesdter was making waves that month. But of course now its the total reverse ! Listening to someone shredding now seems about as musical as listening to someone type fast, sometimes less so! I mean I can do it and it's fun, but I never want to subject anyone to have to listen to it!

I pretty much agree 100% with your response..I only learned the word "Shredder" for guitarists this past December when I got back into playing after a 40 year hiatus from guitar and Jazz.

Ray

[BreckerFan]

Surprised no one's mentioned Adam Rogers in this list, he's a bit more modern for sure, but absolutely rediculous lines. He's one of the few jazz 'shredders' I've found who's lines clearly have direction rather than sounding like technique demonstrations. Check him out here on a Brecker tune.

[sgcim]

Resurrecting this great thread........so many fantastic players I'd never heard of....


Ray

Some threads are dead for a good reason. Equating jazz with shredding is the worst mistake you can make.