Grant Green vs Wes Montgomery

**princeplanet** · 08-26-2017, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Holy shit! That's some of the greatest bop guitar playing I've heard. It's just no struggle. No showboating, just crystal clear perfect lines that swing impeccably. The tempo is not slow either...

Ha! Well I wouldn't go as far as to say that, but he demonstrated way earlier than '70 that he could play changes with decent language, so there was never a doubt as to his abilities in that regard. But, you have evaluate things based on the greater work he left behind, and on the recordings he's mostly admired for, the Blue Notes are considered his apex sessions. So we can say what we like here about them, right? Or do I need to show my Jazz Critic credential first?

Bop chops aside, GG sure liked to Boogaloo, didn't he? My guess is Alfred Lion put him under pressure to do it, after all, Alfred's biggest money earners were Boogaloo sessions (Lee Morgan etc). GG, being young, impressionable and possibly desperate, well, it was probably an easy path. It was either that or try to outgun Wes, Martino and Benson, and that was never gonna happen. He laid out what was no doubt a fresh sound for the time (blues noodling was "in" for jazz, rock, soul and Pop), but much of it now comes across sounding rather lame, IMVHO... and I'm allowed to have an opinion ain't I, especially considering we were all asked for them in the OP...

I sometimes wonder if all the GG love comes from rooting for the underdog, but really, there's a busload of more deserving underdogs, Billy Bean for instance! I dunno, but if we're talking mid 60's Jazz guitar icons, it's not Wes vs GG, It's Wes vs everyone else. In fact even today, for me at least, I still agree with the guy who once said:

"Wes

Daylight

Everyone else..."

Wes is our Bird, no-one is even in the same building.

**lawson-stone** · 08-26-2017, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

If that's the version from 'Matador', I agree that Grant carried on that phrase for too long. But it's still a great record for all that. Even my favourite players are going to have the occasional blemish that I don't like.

I totally agree, and admire Grant Green's playing very much. When i heard him come on the jazzradio.com guitar channel this AM while my wife and I were getting ready for the day (his tone is just unmistakable!) I thought "Yay! GG!" but that stretch of the one lick that never stopped licking emptied the room. The greatest players do in fact have a stretch from time to time like that.

I had no intention of bashing GG, but we all were asked for opinions. And a listener who puts down money for recordings also has a right to their own opinion even if they aren't a great player themselves. I am a legitimate authority on what I like and why.

**yaclaus** · 08-26-2017, 02:59 PM

I think Peter Bernstein and GG have the best jazz guitar tone I've ever heard. Not underdogs by a long shot in my mind

**Stringswinger** · 08-26-2017, 03:12 PM

I dig GG and have for many years going back to the 80's. But I stand by my assertion that he and Wes are in different leagues.

The only guitarists who are in the same league with Wes (IMO) would be Joe Pass, Benson, Johnny Smith and Django. And maybe Barney, Tal and Jim Hall.

**grahambop** · 08-26-2017, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I totally agree, and admire Grant Green's playing very much. When i heard him come on the jazzradio.com guitar channel this AM while my wife and I were getting ready for the day (his tone is just unmistakable!) I thought "Yay! GG!" but that stretch of the one lick that never stopped licking emptied the room. The greatest players do in fact have a stretch from time to time like that.

I had no intention of bashing GG, but we all were asked for opinions. And a listener who puts down money for recordings also has a right to their own opinion even if they aren't a great player themselves. I am a legitimate authority on what I like and why.

No problem, that phrase annoys me too whenever I play that track!

**destinytot** · 08-26-2017, 04:02 PM

Re. My Favorite Things, as McCoy Tyner was on Coltrane's '61 studio album as well as the Grant Green version, I'm imagining how the latter might have turned had Elvin Jones also been present.

My speculation is that, had Elvin been on drums, GG's single-note style wouldn't have withstood the intensity - whereas I suspect Wes would have thriven on it.

**jameslovestal** · 08-26-2017, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

Of course Wes was a more sophisticated player. In 1960 he was 37 and Grant was 25. Listen to GB at 25 then at 37.
Now for you folks that feel the need to bash either artist please give me a list of all your albums so I can run right out and buy them.

There was a lot of respectful and intelligent remarks that I sincerely enjoyed reading but if you feel the need to bash either great late player you better be more famous and be a better guitar player.

Both Wes and Grant are my guitar heroes. I started this post out of personal curiosity with you guys.
I side more with Grant because I am more of a blues/jazz player than a jazz/blues player.
Wes frustrates me sometimes because I will never be as good as he was. Grant is more of comfort zone for me.

Their is no question that there music is just as fresh today as it was 55 years ago. Hold the flaming arrows please.

I assume Grant's playing style is more of a 'comfort zone' for most guitar players than Wes; E.g. After a few years of jazz guitar lessons I would put on a Grant Green recording and play over it; with an L-7 and Princeton Reverb I got close to his sound and could 'follow along' with what Grant was doing. But decades later I still can't do that with Wes recordings! I need to reference chord charts and instruction material to even get to 25% of what Wes was doing.

I don't view the above as bashing Grant, but just laying out the reality that Wes was something very special.

**destinytot** · 08-26-2017, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by djg

and yet we know who elvin's favourite guitarist was. nobody outswung grant. btw it's elvin on matador.

Fantastic - and one of my absolute favourite songs (to sing, not play).

**grahambop** · 08-26-2017, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Re. My Favorite Things, as McCoy Tyner was on Coltrane's '61 studio album as well as the Grant Green version, I'm imagining how the latter might have turned had Elvin Jones also been present.

My speculation is that, had Elvin been on drums, GG's single-note style wouldn't have withstood the intensity - whereas I suspect Wes would have thriven on it.

But Elvin Jones was on Grant Green's version too.

**robertoart** · 08-26-2017, 06:04 PM

This is the earlier MFT with Sonny Clark

and a longer outake from Matador session

**coolvinny** · 08-26-2017, 06:56 PM

It's cool to prefer Wes over Grant, but those who said Grant couldn't play or was barely a jazz player are, to quote NWA, straight trippin.

**christianm77** · 08-26-2017, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Green here really reminds me of Jimmy Raney

Yeah, me too!

**vinnyv1k** · 08-26-2017, 07:06 PM

Should we start a Tal Farlow / Jimmy Rainey survey ? .........probably not.

**jameslovestal** · 08-26-2017, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by coolvinny

It's cool to prefer Wes over Grant, but those who said Grant couldn't play or was barely a jazz player are, to quote NWA, straight trippin.

Uh, no one at this thread said anything close to "Grant couldn't play or was barely a jazz player'.

Anyhow, anyone that would even imply that about Grant doesn't know jazz guitar.

But to me that doesn't change the overall point that comparing Grant to Wes is kind of silly. (verses comparing Wes to Joe Pass).

**gggomez** · 08-26-2017, 09:12 PM

I think the heading of the thread disrespectful and moderator should delete.

An analysis of the differences in approach may be of some value maybe. One v the other. Wrong!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Stevebol** · 08-26-2017, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by gggomez

I think the heading of the thread disrespectful and moderator should delete.

An analysis of the differences in approach may be of some value maybe. One v the other. Wrong!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's a stretch. It might set an odd precedent.

**destinytot** · 08-26-2017, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

But Elvin Jones was on Grant Green's version too.

Thanks for pointing that out - I'd never have guessed or bothered to check. EDIT Just checked - and the version I heard has Blakey, but the pianist is Sonny Clark (not McCoy).

As a long-term member, you may be aware that I led a sextet opposite Elvin for a week at Ronnie Scott's nearly two decades ago - and that experience colours my perspective.

For me, the participation of Elvin and McCoy puts Grant Green's My Fave Things next to the one at the bun fight below - because, in a way, they're sort of 'present' there, too. (And I dig the 'Sartrorial' side Aloha! )

For pragmatic (economic and cultural/educational) reasons, I can sympathise. Musically, however, I think Grant Green needn't - perhaps oughtn't to - have bothered at all.

I really do consider Grant Green's '70s Soul output, arguably produced for similar reasons, to be not only significant but also (musically) far superior to what seems like ill-advised recreation.

**Hep To The Jive** · 08-26-2017, 10:52 PM

Looks like the consensus might be both are great, but GG is just not in the same league with Wes. But those who suggested Wes vs Joe Pass... now that's two heavy weights contemporaries with very different styles, and I'd be really curious to see who prefers who, even if in terms of who's school of playing you'd personally follow more.

And my personal favorite match would be Django vs Charlie C, should I start it? It's a big fight night tonight, must've been rubbed off on me

**destinytot** · 08-26-2017, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Looks like the consensus might be both are great, but GG is just not in the same league with Wes. But those who suggested Wes vs Joe Pass... now that's two heavy weights contemporaries with very different styles, and I'd be really curious to see who prefers who, even if in terms of who's school of playing you'd personally follow more.

And my personal favorite match would be Django vs Charlie C, should I start it? It's a big fight night tonight, must've been rubbed off on me

I find it not only helpful but necessary to compare and yes, to 'judge' - but not condemn (though I neither deny nor express the full extent of my contempt for the corruption of this music) - by virtue of criteria.

Wes vs Joe Pass could well be at the heart of the question 'What is 'jazz'?' I think that merits proper reflection.

But I imagine discussion would be less informative or revealing than it would be entertaining - which is fine, assuming this forum is a place of leisure.

Like 'jazz' itself (as process), I think there are layers of increasingly-subtle obstacles to cooperation. And like Jonathan Sacks wrote of the Babel story, there is also the 'dignity of difference'.

**destinytot** · 08-26-2017, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

And my personal favorite match would be Django vs Charlie C, should I start it? It's a big fight night tonight, must've been rubbed off on me

I know who I prefer and why:

**vinnyv1k** · 08-26-2017, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by gggomez

I think the heading of the thread disrespectful and moderator should delete.

An analysis of the differences in approach may be of some value maybe. One v the other. Wrong!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PM a moderator and have it deleted or simply avoid the post if it kindles your anger and read the many other fine postings here.

**Hep To The Jive** · 08-26-2017, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Wes vs Joe Pass could well be at the heart of the question 'What is 'jazz'?' I think that merits proper reflection.
But I imagine discussion would be less informative or revealing than it would be entertaining - which is fine, assuming this forum is a place of leisure. Like 'jazz' itself as a process, I think there are layers of increasingly-subtle obstacles to cooperation.

You are maybe right! I think it could be both informative and entertaining at the same time, but it also could be heated at times probably, which would be cool to avoid. For me it's not about who's better, but who's more influential for YOU! We can love and appreciate both, but who made a bigger impact on you as a player, at least that's the angle I'm looking at.

Actually, I just remembered the first time I came across GG was Blue Guitar album, a jazz compilation, and GG tune was one of my fav on it. I learned the whole tune with the solo and played it for my graduation number. I thought how come I've never heard about this cat before, everyone just talks about Wes, or Joe Pass, or Pat Metheny, and here's a guy a joy to copy licks from. And his timing and note choice is so natural, simple and beautiful, doesn't give you a headache to figure out like Wes!

Mind you, it was in Russia back in the day, we didn't have that much info

Still love this tune though.

**destinytot** · 08-26-2017, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by gggomez

I think the heading of the thread disrespectful and moderator should delete.

An analysis of the differences in approach may be of some value maybe. One v the other. Wrong!

Regarding tone, I think there's been a clear call to order within the thread - perhaps I'm being too naive, but I'm not sure even that was necessary.

Actually, I think I'd go so far as to question the sanity of anyone who takes the 'vs' literally. To me, that's a very scary thought.

**vinnyv1k** · 08-27-2017, 12:24 AM

My survey was based on the years 1960-65. I think a Wes/Joe survey wouldn't be fair as Joe's career spanned 3 decades and Wes just 9 years. Besides jazz was just one of the things Joe could play. Wes was a pure jazz cat. You really can't put a label on Joe. Joe was in a league of his own.
How many guitarists can be on a stage all by himself for 100 minutes blowing the socks off the audience.
Joe and Andre Segovia IMO is it.

My survey was based on 2 guitar rivals during a certain time era. Not based on who was better but who everyone here liked more during that time frame. Wes clearly won the vote but this was not meant to be a competition but a curious musical preference by my shelf to all of you. That's all it was. I think I was very clear about no bashing as I love both artists very much. A lot of wonderful responses but their always has to be the couple that puts the turd in the punch bowl.