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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Louis Armstrong, Charlie Christian and Chuck Berry developed the vocabulary for single note soloing in popular music.
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03-20-2017 07:21 AM
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I don't know about the 90 % part. I don't listen to pop radio by choice but I do hear some at the fruit stand, by the pool, in stores, and so on. It seems that guitar solos are a rare commodity now. I'm old enough to remember the punk scene of the late '70s and a lot of those bands never played guitar solos either, though they were guitar-centered bands. And of course, a lot of heavy metal / thrash / whatever-it's-called-now isn't drawing from the same well at all. It seems nowadays that country music is more likely than rock to produce records with some Chuck in 'em. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I think there are a lot of people who listen to pop music but don't much care for blues, swing, or jump music---which all had room for a hot guitar solo.
And what's funny is that while one could dance to Chuck Berry and one can dance to much current pop music the vibe is so far different that they seem to be coming from wholly different places. (I don't know that much current R&B shows the influence of Chuck Berry either.)
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Hehe, contentious perhaps Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
But the point is inescapable- Berry's "Maybelline" in '55, although a year later than Haley's "Rock around the clock", was a far more important harbinger of what was to become. Listen to the guitar, it's the first distorted rocknroll guitar sound (yes, the blues guys had some distortion earlier...).
From wiki:
"Maybellene" is one of the first rock-and-roll songs. It was written and recorded in 1955 by Chuck Berry, and inspired/adapted from the Western Swing fiddle tune "Ida Red," which was recorded in 1938 by Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys. Berry's song tells the story of a hot rod race and a broken romance. It was released in July 1955 as a single by Chess Records, of Chicago, Illinois.[2] It was Berry's first single and his first hit. "Maybellene" is considered one of the pioneering rock-and-roll songs: Rolling Stone magazine wrote, "Rock & roll guitar starts here."[3] The record is an early instance of the complete rock-and-roll package: youthful subject matter; a small, guitar-driven combo; clear diction; and an atmosphere of unrelenting excitement. The lyrics describe a man driving a V8 Ford chasing his unfaithful girlfriend in her Cadillac Coupe DeVille.
Yep, Rocknroll guitar starts right there, and so does the attitude, not just the lyrics, but the subtextual stuff going on. Gore Carter's "Rock Awhile" from 1949 was the incidental precursor, no doubt, Berry obviously borrowed certain aspects from its sound. But Chuck, perhaps also inspired by early Ike Turner (Rocket 88) and Little Richard, went on to codify Rock's clarion call to it's youth audience with a string of hits that went on to influence the Beatles / Stones led 60's explosion more than anyone else did, even Elvis!
Distortion, driving beat, teen themes, excitement and that unmistakeable cheeky sexiness. The kind that made mothers all across the US wanna lock up their daughters. And that is the spirit that remains in today's pop music, and perhaps always will. The pioneers of Rock'n'Roll found the genie bottle and set it loose, and the world changed dramatically.You think the 60's revolution could have happened without Rock'n'Roll? Think about it, those 2 decades were the most important in history, perhaps all history! Not just talking about music here....
For better of for worse (after all, it killed my favourite era in Jazz), Rock'n'Roll really did change the world, perhaps more than the 2 world wars did. Huge cultural shift we take for granted.
So, did Chuck Berry really do all that? You bet your sweet ass he did!
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I love Chuck and his influence. I just don't think he has as much an influence on contemporary pop music, or even rock music. Springsteen is a big Chuck fan but I don't think there's much of Chuck in Bruce's playing. (I always balked at the claim that Springsteen was the future of rock'n'roll---I never thought Springsteen was rock'n'roll at all, much less where it should go. But I'm an outlier---I don't think much of Springsteen.) I'm not saying this to denigrate Chuck or his legacy. I wish there were MORE of his influence in what I hear. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Hehe, contentious perhaps But the point is inescapable- Berry's "Maybelline" in '55, although a year later than Haley's "Rock around the clock", was a far more important harbinger of what was to become. Listen to the guitar, it's the first distorted rocknroll guitar sound (yes, the blues guys had some distortion earlier...).
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I don't think a lot pop artists today would claim Chuck as much of an influence but they would't be where they're at today without him. Or Bach for that matter.
Here's a quote from Bruce: "Chuck played in a lot of weird keys like Bb".
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I like Chuck Berry. I really do. On a recent drive back from Detroit, I played his Chess recordings, "The Great 28" for ten hours straight.
But let's not go overboard here. Black music fans had deserted the jazz scene in droves during the late 40's, as R & B became much more popular. Earl Bostic had a lot of fans, and kept a lot of jazz musicians employed. Louis Jordan and other jump blues people had a lot of the rock n' roll vibe. T-Bone Walker was around before Berry, and playing some mean guitar stuff. WBGO, the local jazz station plays a show called "Portraits in Blue" with Bob Porter, a knowledgeable DJ, and basically Porter's claim is that R & B, was HUGELY important, because it broke down the color line in the recording industry, and this was starting to happen probably before Chuck Berry.
Chuck Berry came along and was given a chance to go after a cross-over audience, and he was successful. His stuff was a little less stylized, simple blues stuff than say Muddy Waters', and he could write a tune with a decent little sub-plot in it.
But if you listen to his Chess recordings, you realize he's got about 3 or 4 basic riff-y things going on, that are recombined, endlessly. A lot of the songs are structured very similarly. A tune like "Havana Moon" is notable because it doesn't have any of his usual riffs.
He had a bunch of hits, but only one #1 hit. His stuff is catchy, and influenced a LOT of musicians, e.g. the Beatles ("Here come old flattop...) and the Kinks ("Well respected man..."--the lyric, not the tune itself).
Chuck Berry did have a lot to do with making guitar into the lead instrument for rock. A lot of earlier stuff had sax solos...coming out of the Earl Bostic sound and others.
When, a few years later, the Beach Boys lifted one of Berry's tunes, it almost wasn't obvious, because his sound and his riffs had become so thoroughly absorbed, into the larger musical culture.
Chuck Berry himself admitted his ambition was to play in a big band. He was absolutely scathing about Keiff Richards' ignorance about flat-scale songs...as in "what do they play in a Big Band, Keiff ?....so get with it, and listen to where this stuff comes from". (I'm quoting his sense, not his exact words.)
The Kinsey Report, the experience of WW II, the widespread availability of birth control, an affluent demographically massive youth cohort, a car culture in which teenagers could get away from parents, etc., all had a lot to do with changes in popular behavior. Whatever happened with the rock n' roll generation probably would have happened anyway, and if there had been no Chuck Berry, then Gene Vincent, or Carl Perkins, or Elvis, or Eddie Cochran, or Buddy Holly, or Bo Diddley, or Fats Domino, or someone else probably all would have happened anyway.Last edited by goldenwave77; 03-20-2017 at 01:33 PM.
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Welp all I can say is Paul Yandell sounds great on this Jerry Reed melody of Chuck Berry tunes...
Last edited by BFrench; 03-20-2017 at 02:09 PM.
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Sounding great was all Paul Yandell ever did when he had a guitar in his hands. They could have recorded him getting it stepped on by a herd of elephants and it would have been good enough to put on a B-side, at least. Originally Posted by BFrench
Hey BFrench -- are you familiar with Craig Dobbins? He's a big fan of Chet and Paul (as well as Jerry Reed), and can really do justice to that style when he's not doing his own tunes. He put out a book of Paul Yandell transcriptions awhile back.
Craig Dobbins ~ The Paul Yandell Collection
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He may be dead, but his music will live forever:
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Back when Dennis Miller did the "Weekend Update" segment on "Saturday Night Live," he did a bit about Earth finally receiving word from outer space. And that word was, "Send more Chuck Berry!" Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Originally Posted by BFrench
What kind of amps were those ??
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Charlie Christian had much less to do with the matter than Ike Turner, in my opinion. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Neither Ike nor Chuck would have sounded like they did without the music that influenced them. When you listen to guys like Louis Jordan, Roy Milton, and Jimmy Liggins, it's easy to see that Ike and Chuck were drawing water from the same well. Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
However, I don't think it's possible to overstate the influence of Charlie Christian on everything that came after. Virtually an entire generation of jazz guitarists -- players such as Herb Ellis, Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Jimmy Wyble, and Wes Montgomery have openly said they learned to play by copying Charlie Christian solos. Non-guitarists, such as Western Swing legends Tiny Moore (mandolin) and Johnny Gimble (fiddle), have also cited Christian as a major influence.
In terms of sheer numbers, I would wager that far more rockers were turned on to Charlie Christian because of Chuck Berry than those who discovered Jimmy Liggins via Ike Turner.
The Benny Goodman and Count Basie small groups were the template for the R&B groups that sprang up when big bands became unprofitable, and their sound was the bridge between swing and rock 'n' roll. Check out the "Chuck Berry intro" (really a Benny Goodman/Charlie Christian lick) in this Louis Jordan number; and try to listen to Jimmy Liggins' "Cadillac Boogie" without thinking of "Rocket 88" or "My Real Gone Rocket" (which are basically the same song, if you ask me).
When asked about his music, Chuck said he'd heard it played by lots of people long before it was ever called "rock 'n' roll," and when he spoke of his influences, it was always Charlie Christian, T-Bone Walker, Nat Cole, and Louis Jordan. There's so much Charlie Christian in Berry's music that it's hard to know where to begin, but here's are a couple, off the top of my head:
These two tunes sound pretty similar, to me . . .
"Airmail Special" (solo starts at 0:33)
"Flying Home" (solo starts at 0:53)
A scrappy version of "Flying Home," with Chuck backed by the Steve Miller Band
Here's "Tuckered Out" -- the B-side of "My Real Gone Rocket" -- released in 1951 by Jackie Brenston and His Delta Cats. Phineas Newborn, Jr. plays piano on this track, and his brother Calvin's guitar solo has a distinct Charlie Christian vibe.
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Great stuff snailman!
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Thanks -- glad you liked it! Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Cool post, and point well made, but, say,
Buddy Bolden > Eddie Lang > Carl Perkins > modern pop music ? ...... Nah...
With the possible exception of the great Bo Diddley, nearly all the 50's rocknroll stars were considered corny by the early 70's, which tells you their influence had waned, but not Chuck. 1972 London Sessions showed his enduring appeal. It's just a pity My Ding-a-Ling was the best known song from that, a song that Benny Hill could have written!
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It's been a while since I listened to the '72 London Sessions albums. Had an older brother who had this. You might be right--some early rockers got superseded, maybe. Chuck Berry's stuff was influential---nobody can deny that.
Eddie Lang, though? Jazz people maybe revere him, but I think the line to Chuck Berry runs more directly through Lonnie Johnson, T-Bone Walker, Big Bill Broonzy, and some of the people mentioned earlier by snailspace, e.g. Charlie Christian and Louis Jordan.
(I still think Earl Bostic is maybe not as recognized as he should be, but maybe that's me. Still, a guy who can school Charlie Parker in a cutting contest (which he did), and has popular r & b recording presence is not to be dismissed. Also, that big throaty, slightly dirty sounding tone, which I think Berry was trying to achieve. Listen to Bostic's "Night Train")Last edited by goldenwave77; 03-21-2017 at 01:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Earl Bostic isn't mentioned as much as he should be. The boppers tended to dig him. Another guy that is often forgotten is Don Byas. IMO Byas is about the only guy that could hold his own with Christian at the Minton's
sessions.
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The nice thing to me about Chuck Berry's career was that though he started as a blues player/singer (a GOOD one), he wasn't making $ (gee, what a SURPRISE!), so he was canny enough to pull a plan B out of his hat: writing and performing songs that resonated with the white teens. It worked, and he was one of the first performers of color to break through to that market back then.
I thought the songs were good, too, and Berry a fine entertainer.
RIP
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I miss the days when a 'cover' might mean something. Before all the publish or parish BS. RIP Chuck Berry;
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I bet when young couples of a certain age had some quiet time together, there was a lot of Earl Bostic being played.
That cut of "Flamingo" is one of the greatest make-out tunes of all time. And without any lyrics...my, oh my.
Boy, I can see it now...."Wait, I think I heard a car in the driveway!" "I thought your parents went out to the movies...." Sound of car door slamming, and fumbling of a young couple to make themselves presentable.
"JANIE, what is going on down there?!"
"Nothing, Mom....uh Billy is over....we're just listening to some records. This guy.... Earl....Earl Bostic is really great."
"The two of you...upstairs NOW !"Last edited by goldenwave77; 03-21-2017 at 04:45 PM.
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Right. Chuck Berry didn't come out of nowhere. It strikes me when I hear the way he handles the rhythm and the syncopations in his guitar solo of Johnny B. Goode, that there's little that couldn't have been played by Lester Young. Kansas City swing, the jump bands and the boogie woogie pianists, that's where Berry - and R&R - came from. And Berry did it better that the rest of the rock and rollers . Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Last edited by oldane; 03-21-2017 at 05:33 PM.
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Hadn't heard that in years. Played it over and over as a kid. Jimi did several great covers---"Hey, Joe," "All Along The Watchtower," "Wild Thing", "Come On," "Day Tripper", "Like A Rolling Stone," "Killing Floor," "Rock Me, Baby," and of course, "The Star-Spangled Banner." Originally Posted by Stevebol
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