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True.
Originally Posted by sgcim
I worked with Teo on a project once and got to hang and hear many stories. He had loads to say about this Miles period - maybe, I think, because he figured those were the tales and times everyone wanted to hear about.
Macero - well, what I found about him - was a strictly commercial guy: I mean, he worked for money, the record company were paying his salary, and they were demanding PRODUCT - and so he delivered.
Professionally, I admire the results.
Musically, I don't really dig it.
Personal taste, I guess.
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12-03-2015 09:14 PM
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I'm sorry you think that. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I'll just fuck off, then.
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I have no doubt Miles would have created a comfortable environment in the music for Jimi.
That's what he always did, and that's what made him an excellent band leader (perhaps his greatest gift).
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No need to do that, stick around, you might learn something. Originally Posted by Lazz
But calling that music "White" is first of all, an unecessary dip into the racial divide, words just meant to stir up hard feelings, and secondly, kind of a naive statement, if you're using "white" as a putdown, if you know the caliber of musicians Miles was playing with at this point, particularly his rhythm section.
Personally, I think nothing's more ignorant than assuming "black music" has to be dumb and simple, and the complex rhythms of Miles' 70's bands is somehow "white."
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I can't agree with that. Originally Posted by Lazz
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After thinking about this potential collaboration awhile I am coming to the conclusion that it probably would not have worked out well. Not because of the technical skills of each artist, but because of the egos.
Collaborations between such driven, highly accomplished people often don't work out, despite the hype. Of course there are collaborations (in jazz especially)--Jim Hall/Bill Evans, Armstrong/Fitzgerald, Metheny/Scofield, Hall/Metheny, Metheny/Coleman, Corea/Jarrett come to mind immediately--but these are people A) who have played and appreciate the sideman role and B) who are relatively equal technically and professionally--they approach each other as coequals. They also have a certain humbleness which allows them to share the spotlight, maybe the critical feature.
Conversely, a lot of so-called "supergroups" actually have one superstar and a couple of other sideman who haven't sold anywhere near as many records, talented though they may be. So they end up supporting the star. And usually don't last long. Cream, Derek and the Dominoes and Blind Faith come to mind here.
Anyway, Davis never really collaborated with anyone as a coequal after the mid-50's, unless you want to include Gil Evans as a collaborator. And Hendrix of course was as friendly and open a musician as there was, but as an emerging superstar, why would he give up his role as first among equals at that point of his career? I couldn't find specific figures, but Hendrix probably sold a whole lot more records in 1969 than Davis--that would have to be difficult for Davis to deal with. Davis embraced rock, funk, etc. but only by employing these musicians as technicians, not letting them drive the car for awhile.
It is in fact interesting how FEW excellent collaborations there are among top musicians. True some established artists can set aside part of their ego and give it a go and come out with some good stuff--rarely their best stuff, but there are exceptions, as noted above--maybe more in certain fields like bluegrass and old-school jazz than rock and fusion.
Then, there are the combinations that are just crap (Asia--what talent, how insipid the result) or cute and entertaining but not very consequential (The Travelling Wilburys).
To be honest I have a hard time envisioning Davis/Hendrix as accomplishing anything exceptional.
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I think Miles knew Jimi's limitations and also his brilliance. And also how much money there was out there. If Miles would have had control over the material and the direction (and he would have).... With a good producer, backup players that Miles would chose to fit with Jimi's style, it would have been interesting to say the least. Whatever the results, that thing would have, and continue, to sell a staggering number.
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how about Miles , Jimi and Jaco
How d'ya like them apples ?
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I call BS on that. In one of the books, Miles talks about how impressed he was by Shorter, Hancock, Williams, and Carter. He was always the boss, of course, but the music on the studio records, and on the live recordings says otherwise. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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Well that's my point. Miles was always the boss and called all the shots. That's not a collaboration, that's being a bandleader. How much Miles respected them has nothing to do with it. Miles played Shorter's compositions, otherwise he used them as sidemen, incredibly talented and of course contributing in important ways to the work, but players not collaborators. Originally Posted by StanG
Put another way, I love Wayne Shorter's work on Miles' albums, especially Bitches Brew, but in no way do I think of them as Wayne Shorter's albums. They're pure Miles. A true collaboration is Jim Hall/Bill Evans, Pat Metheny/Jon Scofield--both names on the title, both contributing equally to choosing the works and arranging them.
If Miles wanted to work with Jimi as stated, it would probably have to be with Jimi as a sideman, a featured player, kind of like Stevie Ray Vaughn on Bowie's Let's Dance.Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 12-05-2015 at 12:36 AM.
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I get your point, but my feeling is that when they were in the studio, actually making records, and turning Wayne's written out sketches into masterpieces, that they functioned as musical equals. Don't forget that one of Mile's greatest strengths was recognizing who and what it would take to realize his vision. He did this consistently for 30 some years.
It is all conjecture and opinion on our parts. None of us were there and the written record comes in large part from Miles, who was a known bs'er.
Personally, I think it would have been cool. It wouldn't have been Electric Lady Land or Miles Smiles, but it would have been cool. And in that time, it would have sold a lot of records.
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On the Corner sounds quite funky to me. This is the Bill Laswell remix - the sound is better than the original and brings the drumming out nicely: Originally Posted by Lazz
Last edited by grahambop; 12-05-2015 at 06:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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if Agharta is the sound of Miles Davis "adopting a persona and chasing stardom," then i wish that more artists adopted a persona and chased stardom.
Pete Cosey's playing on that is some next level shit
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It's true that Miles was the leader who called the shots, but it's not true that he hired musicians just as sidemen, not collaborators, or, rather, it's much more complicated than that. All this talk of Miles as technician (limited, or not), as a composer, as a narcissist, whatever, misses the essence of what he was musically: he was first and foremost a creator of bands and group aesthetics. There are no Miles Davis records. There are records of bands put together by Miles, each or which has a distinct aesthetic, almost a genre unto itself, flowing from the way Miles chose combinations of players and pushed and pulled them. A big part of this was picking people younger (or less experienced) than he was and tapping into things that influenced them but which were not part of his own development and experience. That's what the Hendrix thing was about. IMO, most of Miles' electric work was about trying to find a replacement for Hendrix after that opportunity slipped away. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
As to whether Hendrix would have been able to keep up with Miles, of course he would have. Hendrix had unbelievable musical abilities. He may not have been formally schooled, but he paid dues on the chitlin circuit and in dance/club-date/cover bands. He had tremendous technical facility and time, and a brilliant contrapuntal comping concept. He knew how to play with people, how to compose, how to create melodies and grooves in improvisation, and how to get the sounds in his head out of his instrument. I have no doubt that his ears were good enough to play anything he wanted to play. His music came from what he chose to play, not his inability to play other things.
John
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John and Stan I get your points and agree with most of them. I think the problem is a little bit semantic or even philosophical--what does it mean to be a "bandleader" or to "collaborate". What does it mean if you put together a band but then label it under your own name? True, jazz is different than other types of music and is more collaborative by nature, whereas an Elvis Presley or Garth Brooks or Adele record is assumed to be all about the one person.
From what I have read Miles' MO during recording sessions at that point in his career was to assemble talented players and give them a lot of free rein to contribute and gel--the aesthetic is a good way to describe it. However, this doesn't mean that Miles wasn't ultimately calling the shots or wasn't obsessive about the finished product.
I still think the Miles/Jimi situation is unusual and IMO unlikely to have taken off or to have been successful in the way people imagine it. It has nothing to do with the difference in styles or the abilities of the players, but mainly with the egos and roles each musician was playing at that time.
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John and Stan I get your points and agree with most of them. I think the problem is a little bit semantic or even philosophical--what does it mean to be a "bandleader" or to "collaborate". What does it mean if you put together a band but then label it under your own name? True, jazz is different than other types of music and is more collaborative by nature, whereas an Elvis Presley or Garth Brooks or Adele record is assumed to be all about the one person.
From what I have read Miles' MO during recording sessions at that point in his career was to assemble talented players and give them a lot of free rein to contribute and gel--the aesthetic is a good way to describe it. However, this doesn't mean that Miles wasn't ultimately calling the shots or wasn't obsessive about the finished product.
I still think the Miles/Jimi situation is unusual and IMO unlikely to have taken off or to have been successful in the way people imagine it. It has nothing to do with the difference in styles or the abilities of the players, but mainly with the egos and roles each musician was playing at that time.
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I listened to Bitch's Brew the other day. Hadn't heard it since the 70's. Scared the crap out of me. I loved it. I listened to On the Corner the next day. I couldn't take much of it. Miles was fakin' the funk on that. It's fun to experiment with funk but it's just jam band music then. Why record it? Good funk bands can take the music to high places. There aren't any now except for the old-timers.
Jimi and Miles? You never know but that doesn't sound very interesting. Funk bands started with Sly and the Family Stone's 'Thank You'. RIP Cynthia Robinson;
Sly is unique. He's still around but not much a part of Hip Hop history. He gets bypassed. he doesn't fit the narrative. Sly, Cameo, EW&F, Ohio Players, Rick James, it's all dismissed as light-weight music.
I like it.
Miles wanted a Hendrix/Sly thing? I don't know what he meant by that. There was an age difference and Miles was older.
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Sly Stone is a big Miles fan. Sly got carried away with drugs same as most rock stars and they sort of broke up mid-70's. I'm surprized Miles and Sly didn't get together but Sly already had Cynthia Robinson on trumpet. It wasn't Sly's group. They were a band band and asked Sly to be their leader. I guess Cynthia could really blow on trumpet but held back in the band. IDK, Miles and Sly never happened.
It's fun speculate.
Monk and Charlie Christian. That would have been the band. CC was a huge star and he was grooming Barney Kessel to take over guitar in Benny's group I think.
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Monk and Charlie Christian. oh yeah. That's the one that got away. Let me tell ya a great Sly Stone story. Originally Posted by Stevebol
I was a hippie kid for about 15 minutes in the San Francisco Bay Area back in the 60s. I was part of the scene and was doing psychedelic light shows on bands for a few months. My partner and I got the gig to do the lights at a somewhat upscale teenage night club (a dress code and no booze) in Redwood City, Calif. 20 miles or so south of SF. Called Winchester Cathedral after the pop hit of the time. This was the Fall of 1966. The club was in the process of getting ready to be opened and myself and a few others were working during the day doing some painting and moving stuff around. One evening after work a bunch of us were sitting around the owner's office just hanging out 60s style. He was getting ready to book a band for the opening and had a list from a booking agent out of Vallejo, CA. He was reading through them to get our input. 60s stuff like The Cranberry People. We'd ask "what kind of music is that?" Rock. OK....Then the next one might have been something like Little Jr. and the Uptights. R&B, right? So he continues down the list and comes to Sly and the Stone Family? Uh...no..uh let's see...uh...Sly? and uh.. the Family Stone? Yeah....Sly and the Family Stone! that's it. We all asked him, like a Greek chorus. "What kind of music's that?!?" R&B he replied. I said "Book 'em Dano!" So the club opens the next Friday nite and up shows the band all dressed in do it yourself tie dyed white pajamas. It was the first time they'd ever played out as a group. They were all seasoned pros though. Sly had been a DJ on KSOL and done some production work with people like Bobby Freeman. Sly may have written his hit "The Duck". They'd been rehearsing for a while but were pretty raggedy when they hit that first night. They we're laughing at themselves and the crowd was laughing along with them. It was raggedy but great and everyone had a ball and knew this was something out of the ordinary. After the first set Sly (who knew he really had something) went around the club introducing himself and shaking everybody's hand. He came up to me and said "Hi, I'm Sly Stone." I said "Hi, I'm Chris. You sounded great." He turned to the next person and went through the whole club like that. The next night they were a lot better and anyone could tell this was going to be something really special. The club owner who'd had experience in the Bay Area managing and promoting some pre hippie bands immediately made them the house band and signed them to a management contract. Well, they just got better and better night after night and people were starting to come, outside of the teenage crowd, just to hear them. My partner was pretty tight with Chet Helms who had a thing called The Family Dog which ran shows at the Avalon Ballroom in SF. We had done some lights for him now and then. At the time Chet was big stuff in the hippie show biz word and was rivals with Bill Graham and the Fillmore. Chet was from the same town in East Texas as Janis Joplin and was responsible for bringing her to San Francisco I believe. My partner figured Chet should check out Sly with the intention of signing him away and doing something big with them. So, Karl, my partner tells the band that Chet's going to come down and check them out and they were pretty excited and all. Chet gets a table up front and listens and splits. He told Karl that he couldn't get into it and was going to take a pass. Dumb MFer. A couple of months later Sly's in LA and the rest is history. The whole experience for me was huge. One of if not the most important musical experiences of my life. Not only did I get to see the band from jump street and how they developed but I would sit alone in the club with a soft drink, waiting for a ride home, after closing every night and listen and watch Sly rehearse the band. He was a master. I remember them vamping out with Sly on keys and him saying through the microphone to tenorman Jerry Martini: "Be cool Jerry... Be cool". Don't ever forget it, Sly Stone was one of the most talented people there ever was and a GREAT band leader. Up there with Duke, James Brown and Ike Turner. I was young and green at the time but I'd been playing the guitar for a while and had heard lots of modern jazz and realized that this was the real deal not some Deadhead Janis bullshit. Of interest was that they didn't do any of the tunes they're known for, and some of them were cut soon after. They mostly did soul covers. Larry Graham did a great version of Knock On Wood. Sly did a funkier version of The Duck. It was hip how he sang it: There's a new dance uh la.....And they call it The Duck uh la.
Any way it was a life changing experience for me and I can remember it like yesterday. Present at the creation.
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Hendrix loved Burrell, but I don't hear him in Jimi's playing. As brilliant as Hendrix was, and as much as he wanted his music to evolve, I don't hear that much evolution during his short career. He didn't consider himself the best because (IMO) he had a limited vocabulary, which was rooted in the Blues.
I would have loved to hear the collaboration between Jimi and Miles, but I believe it would have been Miles who featured and fed of off Hendrix's playing more so than the other way around.
My two cents.
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You can hear Monk and Christian together - they were both on some of those live at Minton's Playhouse recordings in 1941: Originally Posted by Stevebol
Thelonious Monk Discography
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I know, the non-Goodman cuts were huge with me. Bop probably had more to do with the other club- Monroe's. Al Tinney was the house pianist from 39'-43'. He was only 19 years old but I think he was the leader. He knew my mom really well. Bop was Dizzy. I think Dizzy hung out there more. Minton's was Charlie Christian's show. Al was turned off by the drug scene and he didn't like to record so he's not well known. He settled in Buffalo where mom is now. Originally Posted by grahambop
Monk and CC would have been a super-group. I think they were too grounded in swing to get into the blazing fast bop. It's pretty obvious 'A Night in Tunsia' is Dizzy via Monk via CC. They could all write.
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Hendrix wanted Burrell's sound. His tone. Sounds very similar to me. Lot's of mid-range. Originally Posted by zigzag
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Sly is the man. That's all. King of the old school. I didn't know they were such a good live band till recently. People say, James Brown!! Well yeah if Hip Hop is your thing but I'm talking about old school. Originally Posted by mrcee
Let us have our own history.
I love these stories!
Sly and the Family Stone was a BAND.
Now go play with some digital crap if any of you Hip Hop kids are listening. Sample it or leave us old folks alone. Let us have our music you over-paid twits.
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