Jonathan Kreisberg = Great Guitarist/Great Musician

[Robertkoa]

Anyway- forgive my ignorance but until a few weeks ago (and because of this Forum I heard of this Guy-thanks)- I did not even realize that there are Jazz Guitarists that are this good .

Jonathan Kreisberg Warms up with Summertime @USC …:

Much like Eric Johnson in Rock this Guy's Musical Concept is even better than his great Technique. Awesome and amazing etc. The " arrangement " is Amazing also.


My question is :

Where the .... are these Chords from ?
What is the derivation and " formula " for generating movable voicings with this kind of flavor.
What chord scale or is it mixing quartal harmony with Altered Dominants ?

I could listen to each Chord highest note and lowest Note and fill in the middle Voices....( laboriously..lol).

But I am not trying to play this arrangement- I am trying to understand the
Harmony/ Theory behind it to generate other Forms.
Give me some clues...Thanks.

[christianm77]

In terms of voicings, without transcribing Kreisberg's stuff I couldn't say for sure, but it seems like there is a fairly established approach and syllabus that most of the serious modern cats have studied/continue to work on.

1) Inversions of triads, inversions, open and closed positions, all string groups.
2) Inversions of seventh chords - primarily drop 2 and 3, but after this there are many combinations of 1 3 5 7.
3) Intervallic structures of three and four notes. Often called 'clusters.' These structures can of course include the chords in points 1) and 2) but offer many more non-tertial possibilities. Quartals (44 or 444) are the best known examples, but could be anything - often voicings based on 2nds, 4ths and 7ths. Allan Holdsworth comes to mind as the guy who trailblazed this type of chordal vocabulary. I practice these by using a spreadsheet that spits out random combinations of intervals :-)
4) Swap out one of the notes in a 7th chord for something else. For example, change the 3rd for a 2nd.

Chord types are taken through the modes to start off with (major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, possible harmonic major) to begin with. Later, we might use other voice leading fomulae - one nice one is to play descending voicings while playing ascending scales, for example for triads in the C major scale.

Also, cycle of fourths, thirds and so on.

All types of chords in parallel - maj7, maj7b5, maj7#5, dom7, dom7b5, dom7#5, etc, through all permutations for each voicing.

Play chord types through tunes.

Learn superposition formulae for triads and seventh chords. Some are obvious - Ebmaj7 #5 on C gives Cmin9maj7, for example. Some are rather less obvious.

I have been studying this in a not too obsessive but regular, relaxed way for a couple of years, and I can see the value. It really teaches the neck for both harmony and single note playing - if you want to know where the notes are, study voicings! I also see it more as developing a process rather than just memorising grips. You can keep challenging yourself with new stuff..... There's always a new combination.

I am between 30-50% through this work, and I am rather enjoying. I daresay there is no end in sight even when I do feel I have got through the 'basic' material, but it really does seem as if NY guitarists such as Kreisberg, Munder, Lund etc are just this thorough. They have really gone to school on this.

If you haven't worked on this, your brain will implode after a few minutes. It does get easier, and will inspire you with sounds that you can incorporate in your music.


Mick Goodrick is the don of this stuff
http://www.amazon.com/Almanac-Guitar.../dp/B000LZLJ9U

Lage Lund has some other ideas on harmony that are interesting:
Lage Lund Jazz Guitar Chordal Vocabulary Lesson Masterclass

This Vic Juris book is a nice introduction and introduces some nice intervallic sounds:
http://www.amazon.com/Mel-Bay-presen.../dp/0786671297

Get warming those hands up before playing this stuff though. Many stretches.

[Robertkoa]

The stretches are easy for me because I have " hunted " for cool voicings for many years ...I just never thought to move them in parallel ( I guess the term would be "similar"
or parallel but harmonized motion).

After reading your Post - by taking some of my voicings and moving them up and down the fretboard and harmonizing - it does make more sense - just doing it by ear is so much easier than thinking of a scale.
I prefer NOT to get too complicated and actually build them from scales just " hearing" how they want to go is much easier.

I am Rock but Steely Dan influenced ..so I have found many cool voicings on Guitar that are " inside" enough for Rock or Pop by
Stretching five frets and sometimes a stack of 3 fourths on the low strings can give "neutral" sounding voicings that are not too dissonant as can major 7 and major 9 with flat 5th etc.

I don't care about the scale derivations of the Chords as much as the "Color" and where they want to resolve ( or not).

And when improvising I don't care as much about the Scale as where I am IN the chord or chordal region I am in.

So regardless of so many possible scales ( which suck because the intervals are close)
to me I am concerned with the intervals I am playing and the melodic Cadence- i.e.
landing on a chord tone and how they are approached.

Whether Bluegrass ,Blues, Rock etc etc and Theory or not you must have melodic cadences at each chord whether you know or or not...lol.

One of the things I did not like about some Jazz was the changes were flying by so quickly that you didn't hear the Soloist landing on a ninth or third or flat 7 as much as Blues or Rock with more Static Harmony..

I think moving voicings in similar motion( harmonized parallel) up and down the neck
really yields a lot of useful voicings and opens the neck up more for me...

Thanks.

[christianm77]

Ear is always best. I did find it hard to hear the melodic minor though still struggle a little bit - all those whole tones! The harmonic an also be a funny one with that aug 2nd leap. Opens up new sounds.

I find sequencing stuff through major relatively easy, because at least you can hear mistakes. A good way to start though. I bet that's what your ear will gravitate towards if you start doing this stuff.

So I think this is good ear training too... Which is a good thing...

I'm not being funny, but by the end of the Juris book, that minor eleventh chord won't seem like a stretch at all :-) Some of the close voiced Monder stuff is ridiculous. Check out his video....

[docbop]

JK just sent this to his email list. Dam JK and Bernstein that will be amazing duo.

JK Back in NYC!

Jonathan Kreisberg and Peter Bernstein:
Duo Show at La Lanterna!

Wednesday November 25th
8:30pm - 11:30pm

bar next door
La Lanterna Caffe
129 MacDougal Street, New York
(212) 529-5945

[christianm77]

JK just sent this to his email list. Dam JK and Bernstein that will be amazing duo.

JK Back in NYC!

Jonathan Kreisberg and Peter Bernstein:
Duo Show at La Lanterna!

Wednesday November 25th
8:30pm - 11:30pm

bar next door
La Lanterna Caffe
129 MacDougal Street, New York
(212) 529-5945

Wowsers. That ought to be worth catching. Shame I'm not in NY ....

[Robertkoa]

Ear is always best. I did find it hard
to hear the melodic minor though still struggle a little bit - all those whole tones! The harmonic an also be a funny one with that aug 2nd leap. Opens up new sounds.

I find sequencing stuff through major relatively easy, because at least you can hear mistakes. A good way to start though. I bet that's what your ear will gravitate towards if you start doing this stuff.

So I think this is good ear training too... Which is a good thing...

I'm not being funny, but by the end of the Juris book, that minor eleventh chord won't seem like a stretch at all :-) Some of the close voiced Monder stuff is ridiculous. Check out his video....

Lol. I will check it out...I use a lot of five and six fret stretches with my little hands anyway..playing "Piano" chords Jazz Guys might not like..
The reason is they sound cool and sometimes allow more different resolutions and to get minor and major seconds- I am interested in Composition- the 20th Century Classical aspect of Jazz is a fertile resource..

And - if it's a Minor 11th - it better have the flat 3rd in it- or I want my money back...
I mean..if everyone is on an A minor chord
I can't just hit a D Note and call it a Minor 11th Chord because the Piano Player and the Bartender ( whistling) are playing the " other" notes ...right ?
Lol.

[christianm77]

Lol. I will check it out...I use a lot of five and six fret stretches with my little hands anyway..playing "Piano" chords Jazz Guys might not like..
The reason is they sound cool and sometimes allow more different resolutions and to get minor and major seconds- I am interested in Composition- the 20th Century Classical aspect of Jazz is a fertile resource..

And - if it's a Minor 11th - it better have the flat 3rd in it- or I want my money back...
I mean..if everyone is on an A minor chord
I can't just hit a D Note and call it a Minor 11th Chord because the Piano Player and the Bartender ( whistling) are playing the " other" notes ...right ?
Lol.

I'm puzzled as to why you wouldn't have a b3 in your minor 11th chord. It be a sus chord otherwise? Who does that?

[Robertkoa]

I have seen some ( maybe not this Forum would not be because there are mostly heavyweights on here - which is great for me to learn) but some for example mistake a minor 11 for a sus 4 ...
I used to see Chord Books do that.

I always have a flat 3rd and the 4th or 11th in my Minor 11 chords- one of my favorites
A more common mistake is ( and I use these in composition ) calling a[ Major 7 flat 5 ]a [Major 7 sharp 11] the sharp 11 has the fifth and the flatted fifth in different octaves - and maybe for a Jazz thing ..comping for a Horn Player etc they are interchangeable but if you are doing an R&B Track with a Vocalist obviously the sharp 11 ..you have to be more careful.
The Major 7 flat five is more neutral/ useful to my ear for R&B.

I don't care about the Academics...as much as the usage.

[princeplanet]

In terms of voicings, without transcribing Kreisberg's stuff I couldn't say for sure, but it seems like there is a fairly established approach and syllabus that most of the serious modern cats have studied/continue to work on.

1) Inversions of triads, inversions, open and closed positions, all string groups.
2) Inversions of seventh chords - primarily drop 2 and 3, but after this there are many combinations of 1 3 5 7.
3) Intervallic structures of three and four notes. Often called 'clusters.' These structures can of course include the chords in points 1) and 2) but offer many more non-tertial possibilities. Quartals (44 or 444) are the best known examples, but could be anything - often voicings based on 2nds, 4ths and 7ths. Allan Holdsworth comes to mind as the guy who trailblazed this type of chordal vocabulary. I practice these by using a spreadsheet that spits out random combinations of intervals :-)
4) Swap out one of the notes in a 7th chord for something else. For example, change the 3rd for a 2nd.

Chord types are taken through the modes to start off with (major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, possible harmonic major) to begin with. Later, we might use other voice leading fomulae - one nice one is to play descending voicings while playing ascending scales, for example for triads in the C major scale.

Also, cycle of fourths, thirds and so on.

All types of chords in parallel - maj7, maj7b5, maj7#5, dom7, dom7b5, dom7#5, etc, through all permutations for each voicing.

Play chord types through tunes.

Learn superposition formulae for triads and seventh chords. Some are obvious - Ebmaj7 #5 on C gives Cmin9maj7, for example. Some are rather less obvious.

I have been studying this in a not too obsessive but regular, relaxed way for a couple of years, and I can see the value. It really teaches the neck for both harmony and single note playing - if you want to know where the notes are, study voicings! I also see it more as developing a process rather than just memorising grips. You can keep challenging yourself with new stuff..... There's always a new combination.

I am between 30-50% through this work, and I am rather enjoying. I daresay there is no end in sight even when I do feel I have got through the 'basic' material, but it really does seem as if NY guitarists such as Kreisberg, Munder, Lund etc are just this thorough. They have really gone to school on this.

If you haven't worked on this, your brain will implode after a few minutes. It does get easier, and will inspire you with sounds that you can incorporate in your music.

Anyway, Ben Monder has put up a nice pdf with a thorough syllabus on it. There is also an accompanying masterclass video, which helps. Incidentally Ben is now playing guitar with David Bowie, woot woot.
http://www.jazzguitarlessons.net/sup...er-lessons.pdf

Mick Goodrick is the don of this stuff
http://www.amazon.com/Almanac-Guitar.../dp/B000LZLJ9U

Lage Lund has some other ideas on harmony that are interesting:
Lage Lund Jazz Guitar Chordal Vocabulary Lesson Masterclass

This Vic Juris book is a nice introduction and introduces some nice intervallic sounds:
http://www.amazon.com/Mel-Bay-presen.../dp/0786671297

Get warming those hands up before playing this stuff though. Many stretches.

Great response Christian! Another reason why this forum is lucky to have you here.

[fumblefingers]

I have seen some ( maybe not this Forum would not be because there are mostly heavyweights on here - which is great for me to learn) but some for example mistake a minor 11 for a sus 4 ...
I used to see Chord Books do that.

I always have a flat 3rd and the 4th or 11th in my Minor 11 chords- one of my favorites
A more common mistake is ( and I use these in composition ) calling a[ Major 7 flat 5 ]a [Major 7 sharp 11] the sharp 11 has the fifth and the flatted fifth in different octaves - and maybe for a Jazz thing ..comping for a Horn Player etc they are interchangeable but if you are doing an R&B Track with a Vocalist obviously the sharp 11 ..you have to be more careful.
The Major 7 flat five is more neutral/ useful to my ear for R&B.

I don't care about the Academics...as much as the usage.

Maj7b5. What harmonized scale yields that?

Isn't that just short hand for Maj7#11?

[Robertkoa]

Maj7b5. What harmonized scale yields that?

Isn't that just short hand for Maj7#11?

Academically I don't know but as a writer I have used major 7 flat 5 on a R&B Tune so
if I say Major 7 flat 5 I mean :

1 - 3 - b5 - 7 and those are the only notes.

If I say Major 7 sharp 11 I mean:

1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - +11 and play it with the 5th and the +11 above so it actually contains a full major seventh chord plus the +11.

So if there's a keyboard player you have to spell it out to be sure- to me they are slightly different sounds and and can act different under a Vocal especially.

[targuit]

Man! What exquisite technique wedded to a creative musical ear! Humbly, I was just playing along to this video clip, and I would suggest that his monster technique enables him to articulate imaginative musical vistas. He knows where he is going. Love the ending!

[targuit]

This degree of beauty might warrant a transcription. To get it down easiest, all one would need is Transcribe or other slow down software. I don't have it, but Christmas is coming... To play it well is another story, but it's not radically different musical concepts. He does have an extraordinary technique and overarching vision of what he hears - that macro thing. Masterful.

Here's another less virtuoso but beautiful clip.

[mr. beaumont]

That whole album, Night Songs, is essential listening. So good, a beautiful bridge between classic and modern.

[JakeAcci]

Ben Monder has put up a nice pdf with a thorough syllabus on it. There is also an accompanying masterclass video, which helps. Incidentally Ben is now playing guitar with David Bowie, woot woot.
http://www.jazzguitarlessons.net/sup...er-lessons.pdf

Great stuff! A lifetime in one page!