Minds of Jazz Players

[futurenets]

Over the years I've grown to love jazz but when I watch them play, pianist, bass, drummer etc., what is going on in the heads???

[jasaco]

Where their next meal is coming from...

[grahambop]

Over the years I've grown to love jazz but when I watch them play, pianist, bass, drummer etc., what is going on in the heads???

Here's what Sonny Rollins has said:

When I play, what I try to do is to reach my subconscious level. I don't want to overtly think about anything, because you can't think and play at the same time believe me, I've tried it (laughs). It goes by too fast.

[henryrobinett]

Here's what Sonny Rollins has said:

When I play, what I try to do is to reach my subconscious level. I don't want to overtly think about anything, because you can't think and play at the same time believe me, I've tried it (laughs). It goes by too fast.

I've been looking for this quote. I thought I saw him say this on Tavis Smiley. For support for my cause! LOL

[grahambop]

I've been looking for this quote. I thought I saw him say this on Tavis Smiley. For support for my cause! LOL

Hi Henry, I found it here:

Sonny Rollins: 'You Can't Think And Play At The Same Time' : NPR

[zappafan99]

I think the parts of the brain turned on during performance don't leave room for the internal verbal dialogue parts to also be turned on. When our mind is quiet while functioning at high levels of concentration we don't often notice the lack of dialogue. This may be where the feeling of "the music was playing through me" comes from. As soon as you turn on the verbal mind your musical (math, visual art, etc.) mind fades and it "takes you out of the moment". This is the misconception that feels like you are a vehicle for music instead of a creator. You are literally changing your mind when you go from one process to another. You altered which parts are in control. We practice to make things subconscious so we can react in real time with the other musical info coming in. I've wanted to see brain scans of improving musicians in action for a long time.

[henryrobinett]

Hi Henry, I found it here:

Sonny Rollins: 'You Can't Think And Play At The Same Time' : NPR

Thank you! That's the one! "Jazz improvisation is supposed to be the highest form of communication. And getting that to the people. You know, I'm not supposed to be playing. The music is supposed to be playing me."

That's it! This is what I was looking for. This is so true. But you know, you have to do all the due diligence to GET to that point. There is no short cut. You can't just decide to NOT THINK and the magic happens. You have to have CONSUMED all of that data FIRST. It's not really a mystical thing, at least I don't think so to the extent that Rollins indicates. Or, well maybe yes, it is. I think one has to be in a state of almost being out of body. Exterior to the thing. You are LISTENING while playing. Not interferring. Not thinking. Reacting. But you have to KNOW what the hell it is you are doing, on some level. And that means you know the fretboard cold. You don't THINK about the fretboard you know it so well. You know chords, devices to where they are no longer devices. You sing and can just play what you sing.

For me it was getting back to where I started from. In the early days I'd be jamming with friends and this almost mystical feeling took over. I had no idea what I was doing, but I thought, we all thought we just played some stuff. But it was very basic stuff. Blues or out there jazz. But I couldn't play bop, or anything with real changes in it. I could play changes but it was all modal crappy sounding stuff. It took years of studying to where I could almost at will get BACK to being able to play like I did in the early days without thinking, on the more advanced stuff. Because I had to learn the instrument down cold. I had to KNOW the instrument. Then I think the instrument began to know me.

[henryrobinett]

I think it's a physics thing. No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time. That goes for thought as well.

[henryrobinett]

I think it's a physics thing. No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time. That goes for thought as well.

Think about it for a minute. If that's true. That's why people have various reaction times. Putting on the brakes in an emergency, or lagging, slow talkers, or fast talkers. People who can't get the words out fast enough. The mind is ahead or too far behind their lips, or feet. Playing music you have to either be right there a but ahead or behind LISTENING or not at all. And it's not like you fingers are playing on their own because THEY don't know squat. At some level YOU are playing, but you're not THINKING. You're LOOKING/LISTENING. If you are trying to THINK and FIGURE while playing it's just not going to work. And it's not concentration unless you're applying the buddhist samadhi definition.

[mhch]

I think it's a physics thing. No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time. That goes for thought as well.

Well, assuming brain is a single processor or a mechanical thing that analogy would be true, but it's likely brain performs several things at the same time which we don't really perceive (an evidence: some memory pops up while you were doing something else and certainly not trying to remember).

That may be related with Sonny Rollins attempt to reach subsconscious activity..

Anyway brain functionning isn't yet fully understood, but lots of progress are currently being made

[henryrobinett]

Well, assuming brain is a single processor or a mechanical thing that analogy would be true, but it's likely brain performs several things at the same time which we don't really perceive (an evidence: some memory pops up while you were doing something else and certainly not trying to remember).

That may be related with Sonny Rollins attempt to reach subsconscious activity..

Anyway brain functionning isn't yet fully understood, but lots of progress are currently being made

I'll just say this. You're making an assumption nobody has been yet able to prove. We know the brain is responsible for bodily function and regulation, but it's only theory that the brain generates consciousness. No neuro-scientist knows where human consciousness is. No one knows where or what thoughts are or what pictures are. They can see evidence in brain activity but that's not proof that's where it's source is. You can press your finger hard and cause an impression. That doesn't mean the skin on the finger is the source.

[pingu]

Thank you! That's the one! "Jazz improvisation is supposed to be the highest form of communication. And getting that to the people. You know, I'm not supposed to be playing. The music is supposed to be playing me."

That's it! This is what I was looking for. This is so true. But you know, you have to do all the due diligence to GET to that point. There is no short cut. You can't just decide to NOT THINK and the magic happens. You have to have CONSUMED all of that data FIRST. It's not really a mystical thing, at least I don't think so to the extent that Rollins indicates. Or, well maybe yes, it is. I think one has to be in a state of almost being out of body. Exterior to the thing. You are LISTENING while playing. Not interferring. Not thinking. Reacting. But you have to KNOW what the hell it is you are doing, on some level. And that means you know the fretboard cold. You don't THINK about the fretboard you know it so well. You know chords, devices to where they are no longer devices. You sing and can just play what you sing.

For me it was getting back to where I started from. In the early days I'd be jamming with friends and this almost mystical feeling took over. I had no idea what I was doing, but I thought, we all thought we just played some stuff. But it was very basic stuff. Blues or out there jazz. But I couldn't play bop, or anything with real changes in it. I could play changes but it was all modal crappy sounding stuff. It took years of studying to where I could almost at will get BACK to being able to play like I did in the early days without thinking, on the more advanced stuff. Because I had to learn the instrument down cold. I had to KNOW the instrument. Then I think the instrument began to know me.

brilliant post Henry ....

this and also Reg's " if you're in the moment
... you're late"

its like you're thinking , all of 'up to now' , now , and the near future ...
all at once

if you fan out a pack of cards , each 'moment'
is a card that overlaps the near past and near
future ....

actually i think 'being' is like this too
not just improvising notes of music
or talking or running or anything really

[henryrobinett]

Yes, yes, yes and yes!

[pingu]

Here's what Sonny Rollins has said:

When I play, what I try to do is to reach my subconscious level. I don't want to overtly think about anything, because you can't think and play at the same time believe me, I've tried it (laughs). It goes by too fast.

but then he goes and writes Airegin !

[Cunamara]

I'll just say this. You're making an assumption nobody has been yet able to prove. We know the brain is responsible for bodily function and regulation, but it's only theory that the brain generates consciousness. No neuro-scientist knows where human consciousness is. No one knows where or what thoughts are or what pictures are. They can see evidence in brain activity but that's not proof that's where it's source is. You can press your finger hard and cause an impression. That doesn't mean the skin on the finger is the source.

Putting on my psychologist hat for a minute (my day job) that is really not an accurate assessment of the state of knowledge about neurocognitive functioning. It is quite clear that human consciousness is generated in the central nervous system. It is quite clear that injury or modifications (e.g., alcohol, drugs, Alzheimer's) to how the CNS works changes consciousness. A poor fellow named Phineas Gage was patient zero for the start of these observations and modern neuropsychology. We have a lot of information about what different areas of the brain do and how those areas communicate with each other to inform, activate, inhibit and modify each other. Certainly our knowledge is far from complete given that the human brain is the most complex structure known to science, but a lot more is known than most people realize. Not unlike jazz, consciousness is many simple processes put together in a way that appears very complex.


If you haven't seen it, the Human Connectome Project is quite fascinating:


Human Connectome Project | Mapping the human brain connectivity

More specifically for musicians, the movie about Pat Martino's brain is quite interesting.

[MarkRhodes]

Where their next meal is coming from...

Joe Pass was once asked what he was thinking during a particular solo and he said he was thinking he had to pick up milk on the way home later. ;o)

[Groyniad]

Putting on my psychologist hat for a minute (my day job) that is really not an accurate assessment of the state of knowledge about neurocognitive functioning. It is quite clear that human consciousness is generated in the central nervous system. It is quite clear that injury or modifications (e.g., alcohol, drugs, Alzheimer's) to how the CNS works changes consciousness. A poor fellow named Phineas Gage was patient zero for the start of these observations and modern neuropsychology. We have a lot of information about what different areas of the brain do and how those areas communicate with each other to inform, activate, inhibit and modify each other. Certainly our knowledge is far from complete given that the human brain is the most complex structure known to science, but a lot more is known than most people realize. Not unlike jazz, consciousness is many simple processes put together in a way that appears very complex.


If you haven't seen it, the Human Connectome Project is quite fascinating:


Human Connectome Project*|*Mapping the human brain connectivity

More specifically for musicians, the movie about Pat Martino's brain is quite interesting.

what you are thinking/feeling/doing is one question - what has to go on in your brain for it to be possible for you to think/feel/do such things is a different question. even jazz musicians - want to think its not them that plays music but their brains.

see my 'explaining how the mind works: on the relationship between cognitive science and philosophy'

Explaining how the mind works: on the relation between cognitive science and philosophy. - PubMed - NCBI

what sonny is talking about is not what goes on in his HEAD or his brain but what he does when he plays. he is no position to tell us anything about the first topic - but he's in the best possible position to tell us about the second. it is very interesting to hear him say 'it all goes by too fast' - because when we started (and if we're playing a difficult tune we don't know) we all had the feeling of trying to think our way through the changes to e.g. autumn in new york etc. etc. sonny tells us - with authority! - that you have to know the tune so well you don't have to think AT ALL to get through the harmony. that's genuinely helpful for jazz musicians - but he has made no contribution whatever to cognitive neuroscience. and that should not surprise us.

[destinytot]

"Jazz improvisation is supposed to be the highest form of communication. And getting that to the people. You know, I'm not supposed to be playing. The music is supposed to be playing me."

Great stuff.

Records are great, but it seems to me that - in the communication stakes - live music is where it's at.

Moreover, and perhaps ironically, it seems to me that 'getting out of the way' is what creates intimacy. The impact of the music becomes powerful but not forced, and the circumstances under which any listening occurs become 'up-close-and-personal'.

And, without being 'mystical', I think the communication transcends the circumstances.

I've come to really appreciate the value of what 'real' (sincere) Jazz Clubs make available, because - as a listener - I always find the experience uplifting, if not transformational. As a performer, I'd say the communication has less to do with playing or chops (which are a means) than with power emanating from the music. (Rollins is right. The music is the 'star'.)

[Groyniad]

it takes SO LONG to get the 'things' you're practicing into your live performance. i mean its just incredible.

there's almost no direct route from practice to performance. the quickest way to get new things into your playing is by busting yourself to depart from what you're totally comfortable with in performance. as soon as i've managed it once in performance it will crop up again (and i'll do it a bit better).

if i develop better right hand technique in practice that shows up in gigs straight away - but trying to get new ideas from practice into performance is really hard.

maybe this is because you have so much time when you're practicing and none at all when you're performing

[whiskey02]

Joe Pass was once asked what he was thinking during a particular solo and he said he was thinking he had to pick up milk on the way home later. ;o)

I believe Metheny mentioned his laundry.

[citizenk74]

I know nothing about these brain/mind issues and have great respect for those willing and able to explore them. What I know from my experience on the bandstand, in the studio, or in the practice room, is this: in the course of playing along, in the groove, on a roll, so far so good, the stray thought "hey, that was pretty nice/cool/good" is inevitably the harbinger of complete trainwreck.

[destinytot]

No false modesty from Dr Hfuhruhurr

[vintagelove]

In order to reach that "zone" you really have to know the sh@t out of a tune. Not to mention anything you want to be able to do over the tune, you also need to know that down to the subconscious level.

[grahambop]

I know nothing about these brain/mind issues and have great respect for those willing and able to explore them. What I know from my experience on the bandstand, in the studio, or in the practice room, is this: in the course of playing along, in the groove, on a roll, so far so good, the stray thought "hey, that was pretty nice/cool/good" is inevitably the harbinger of complete trainwreck.

Yeah I think that also fits with what Sonny Rollins was on about. If you start thinking about it too much, you're buggered!

[destinytot]

Warning - contains references that are probably unsuitable for minors (or squares)

maybe this is because you have so much time when you're practicing and none at all when you're performing

Not if you're a viper.