-
Just a question. I've heard what I think is called smearing notes instead of playing with a specific line in mind. The notes kinda spill out into the air without an intention for the specifics of the line (I think it's an effect, not a go to).
From what I've listened to, Barney Kessel and Tal Farlow do this smearing a lot. It's different than playing with rhythmic purpose, like double time lines, or a bluesy quarter note thing, or playing behind or in front of the beat. The notes kinda "spill" across the fret board.
Does anyone else get what I'm referred to? Asking because, although I love their playing, I don't understand the technique so it sounds sloppy (even though it is intentional) to my ears. If I could break it down I'd be able to grasp it more. Should I post examples?Last edited by Irez87; 09-13-2015 at 12:04 PM.
-
09-13-2015 11:02 AM
-
It's called sweep picking. Here's a link to the Wikipedia description. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweep-picking As mentioned, Barney Kessel and Tal Farlow were among the first to use this technique in jazz guitar. I prefer their playing before they started using this technique. Their lines were more melodic. I think it was a reaction to developments in jazz in the 1960's.
Last edited by zephyrregent; 09-13-2015 at 12:26 PM.
-
I'd prefer examples before answering.
While they may be sweeps, there's nothing inherently sloppy about sweep picking.
-
Examples of Barney Kessel's sweep picking around 24:20 and 31:50 from Feeling Free
Compared to an album from the 1950's like Plays Standards:
Sweep picking is not necessarily sloppy, but it's my opinion his lines are more memorable in his earlier playing, although he did use the technique sparingly back then also. It sounds to me like a reaction to the "sheets of sound" of Coltrane.
-
Nope it's not sweep picking, per say (though that technique might be used to do it). I'm looking for examples, in the midst of a big fight with the downstairs housemate, so it might take more than a day
EDIT: zeph you maybe right about the sweeping, but your video doesn't work. Try to post the original song for flying free. I have the original album, but I dunno where to look. I thought I heard the technique pre coltrane, Tal has it on his Cooking on All Burners album. I like his Swinging Guitar album more because it is more melodic and less of the splattering note kinda thingLast edited by Irez87; 09-13-2015 at 02:31 PM.
-
Like at :35ish or :37ish. Not distinct notes at all, and you can make your notes distinct with sweeping as well. Kind sounds allover. Compare that to this:
Most of the notes sound more defined. It's probably just person preference for me, but I like the notes to sing more and be more melodic.
-
_
Originally Posted by Irez87
Nope it's not sweep picking, per say (though that technique might be used to do it). I'm looking for examples, in the midst of a big fight with the downstairs housemate, so it might take more than a day
EDIT: zeph you maybe right about the sweeping, but your video doesn't work. Try to post the original song for flying free. I have the original album, but I dunno where to look. I thought I heard the technique pre coltrane, Tal has it on his Cooking on All Burners album. I like his Swinging Guitar album more because it is more melodic and less of the splattering note kinda thing
Here's a link to a diiferent post of Feeling Free, with sweep picking around 2:20. I hope it works!
-
yes, yes, thanks! that is the technique. I used sweeps in a more musical manner, it sounds randomized. Thanks for finding it!
-
Well, there's really nothing random about 'em, they're just not really cleanly executed.
I'll get stoned to death here for saying this, but Tal and Barney got sloppy as they got older.
-
I think a lot of the early bop guys weren't thinking in terms of creating legato lines, or speed, when using sweep techniques. It was more in imitation of what keyboard players do: think of those cross-string sweeps as a little cluster of grace notes (very pianistic). Blues guys commonly do a muted sweep, to provide a percussive effect to add accent to the final note. That slightly messy feel is fine in that context, but I've never cared for it in Jazz. The 'fluffed' note thing puts me off Barney a bit; though I love his chord melody and comping. Julie is Her Name is a great Album:
-
Yeah, they did. We will too! (And I'm sloppy enough without advanced age to blame...) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
Yeah, I think "sloppy" best describes what you're hearing. Tal could be sloppy. Definitely not something you'd want to emulate.
-
Well, no reason we have to. Raney and Hall, for example, were playing at the top of their game later in life...Benson's no spring chicken and he's doing fine too. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
These guys are/were no better than Tal and Barney...but they adapted, they kept up.
Jazz is a wonderful place where a grandkid or three doesn't mean your cache is empty.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 09-13-2015 at 08:33 PM.
-
Barney used the sweeping technique very sparingly in the 1950's. On Julie Is Her Name he plays with very classic clean technique. It was sometime later in the 1960's or 1970's that the sweeping technique became a more prominent part of his style as on the Feeling Free album.
Tal's 1950's technique was also very clean, clear and melodic. I hear the sloppiness or looseness in his later playing.
-
TBH it sounds like some inaccurate playing to me - just some mis-timing between the two hands.
It's hard to be accurate all the time on heavy strings and using a heavy floating technique. Light picking on an electric with an anchored hand - much easier, which is why many of the modern guys are cleaner (but have a very different feel)
It's kind of reassuring to know some of the the greats could be human too!
-
I heard it was purposeful on some video (I think it was a Kessel instructional vid) but I am glad that I am not the only one who dislikes the effect. I mean, I love Kessel's early playing and Tal's first record is pretty killing indeed. But that Cooking on All Burners album, the chord playing is great but everything else... I felt like I was just not getting it. Kinda like listening to Bartok and going, what the hell is this, after hearing Mozart and Bach. But I like the Bartok and Penderecki stuff as well, so I wasn't sure what I wasn't getting. And I LOVE Coltrane, just about as much as Miles Davis, and sheets of sound works on his horn.
-
man, pete cosey probably give you a heart attack!! haha
comes in around the 6 minute mark
just teasin
cheers
-
you know, with all the distortion and everything, I actually dig it. But when it's done with a clean setting it sounds more gobbly gloop to me. Maybe because the distortion smooths it out.
-
That's what I was getting at with the blues guys who do this. A bit of attitude and it's in context. Clean Jazz playing though? I've never cared for it. And I agree, it is/was a deliberate effect. There's a bit in George Benson's vid where he demonstrates how he tried to emulate the right-hand trills that pianists play. That quick sweeping thing (to my ears) sounds like an attempt to copy the typical arpeggio grace notes that pianists use. Nothing to do with speed or fluency, they're meant to be ghost notes. Sounds great on a keyboard, but...guitarist, step away from the plectrum. Originally Posted by Irez87
-
Here you go. I've always known this technique as 'raking'...quick search on youtube and found this (8m56s mark):
I learned how to do it as a teen, from listening to BB King's Rock Me Baby...though in hindsight it might have been the piano I was hearing!
Last edited by GuitarGerry; 09-14-2015 at 04:51 AM.
-
I love Pete Cosey haha Originally Posted by neatomic
Obv. Tal should have got a fuzzbox and a wah...
-
Yeah I think sweep picking sounds goofy. Even when Jim Hall does it .. it's like - 'and now here's a thing!' Originally Posted by GuitarGerry
On the other hand integrating so called economy picking in one's playing is standard for many players - I do it myself. I think it's when it's done really fast as a 'gesture' it sounds a bit artificial. I never like the sound of it TBH...
-
I like when Jim does it, because Jim can do no wrong...
No, I like it because it still fits with the musical idea he did right before it and the musical context that the band gave him. Most importantly, to me, those rakes that Jim does are more rhythmically precise than Kessel's or Tal's. I think that's what bothered me the most about Kessel's and Tal's smear thing. It don't mean a thing (if it ain't got that pocket) dah dah da dah dah da dah dah dot dahhhhh
Grant Green never compromised his rhythmic pocket for any music idea (if he did, post it, I'm curious) and neither did Wes (post an example if you disagree, I'm curious, not combative). No matter what they played, it always drove the music rhythmically (and melodically, for the most part as well). That's why you can dance and tap your feet to the music. That's why I keep going back to GG and Wes.
On the other hand, I am not crazy about players who play lines so fast that the guitar becomes percussive and you can't hear the notes. However, I love Lionel Loueke's playing because the percusion has a specific musical context to his playing. Loueke's got to get more love here on the forum...Last edited by Irez87; 09-14-2015 at 06:46 AM.
-
I thought Barney Kessel first did the 'raking' thing in an attempt to try and emulate those really fast 'shower of confetti'-type runs that Charlie Parker used to do. Always seemed a bit pointless to me to try and do this on the guitar!
-
By the way, Jan Akkerman used to do a similar thing sometimes during his solos in his 'Focus' days. I always assumed he got this from Kessel. In the rock context, Akkerman usually made it sound pretty effective. Possibly lighter strings and a bit of distortion helped.
Reply With Quote
Has anyone tried the JHS Clover preamp pedal?
Yesterday, 05:41 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos