Russell Malone mocking avant-garde performance

[Doctor Jeff]

I am reminded of Al Dimeola's rants about Kanye and rap in general...

Sometimes artists should just let their art do their talking...

Re' avant-garde, has anyone ever seen Bruce Hampton and the Late Bronze Age? Those guys could play, but man were they out there. Every performance was a revelation. There was a lot of that stuff in Atlanta in the 70's-80's.

And don't forget Frank Zappa. From a 1963 orchestral performance he financed himself:

“The next piece that we’re going to play . . . Maybe I should tell you what we were doing . . . The, the signals that we were giving, I’ll explain to you very simply: This means ‘free improvisation’ and the finger signals told the performers which of the fragments they were to uh, play at any given moment. Anyway, the next piece that we’re going to play is in standard notation, and it’s actually pretty tame compared to the “Opus 5.” It’s called “The Collage Two,” and it was written last Thursday.”—Frank Zappa

[Hep To The Jive]

I am reminded of Al Dimeola's rants about Kanye and rap in general...

Sometimes artists should just let their art do their talking...

Re' avant-garde, has anyone ever seen Bruce Hampton and the Late Bronze Age? Those guys could play, but man were they out there. Every performance was a revelation. There was a lot of that stuff in Atlanta in the 70's-80's.

And don't forget Frank Zappa. From a 1963 orchestral performance he financed himself:

“The next piece that we’re going to play . . . Maybe I should tell you what we were doing . . . The, the signals that we were giving, I’ll explain to you very simply: This means ‘free improvisation’ and the finger signals told the performers which of the fragments they were to uh, play at any given moment. Anyway, the next piece that we’re going to play is in standard notation, and it’s actually pretty tame compared to the “Opus 5.” It’s called “The Collage Two,” and it was written last Thursday.”—Frank Zappa

ahhh, Frank Zappa was a pisstaker. I think, everything he did was to provoke people. He enjoyed it very much, since he claimed that stupidity is the most common element in the universe. He was a brilliant musician though, great guitarist too. But he never claimed to be high art, he said what he did was for entertaining purposes only. I really miss him, there is no artists like that around today.

The piece RM chose to mock seem to be a pile of doo-doo that pretends to be art. If it was done to piss people off, it would be much more noble. Pretentiousness is what makes it crap.

[wolflen]

the film "back to the future" had a great moment .. marty is playing guitar with the band and starts to play some tapping and feedback..but the 1950's audience was not quite ready for 1985..and they watched in silence..as if to say.."..aww the poor guy has lost his mind.." so could it be we are just not ready for 12 tone experiments..

Russell got his butt kicked one night..he sat in with Jimmy Smith..Russell was going to show jimmy what jazz was all about..of course smith read him the riot act is several languages-Malone admitted he "learned" something from that experience..he later worked with smith for a period of time..so I would take Malones comments (anyones for that matter) as a member of the 1950s .. watching in horror at a preview of the 20XX..

bottom line..really..who cares .. some top name players get "crucified" playing straight-ahead jazz..and when some top names started to get into "fusion" - ouch.."...McLaughlin cant play jazz.." really??..Miles Davis does "bitches brew" and the world is ending..Avant-guard?..if it isn't .. it will do until it gets here..and some critics even said . "miles cant play anymore".. He can't..??

we are still free to choose what we like (in most cases-kids school lunches exempted) if the day comes that we HAVE to play " the 12 tone monster that devoured Cleveland-THEN-all bets are off..

[ecj]

Russell got his butt kicked one night..he sat in with Jimmy Smith..Russell was going to show jimmy what jazz was all about..of course smith read him the riot act is several languages-Malone admitted he "learned" something from that experience..he later worked with smith for a period of time..so I would take Malones comments (anyones for that matter) as a member of the 1950s .. watching in horror at a preview of the 20XX..

This is not an accurate statement. Malone has said in interviews that he was offered the chance to sit in with Smith when he was a very young man. Smith didn't like the way he was hot-dogging and showing off on the first tune they played, so he called "Laura" in a weird key to teach Malone the lesson that he still had a lot to learn.

Malone said that after the gig Smith gave him some advice, and they ended up working together.

Also, much of Malone's work is edgy, intervallic modern jazz. And I would guess that very few people who are "avant garde" artists would be capable of keeping up with that music - the tempos, changes, etc. Malone does a great job with traditional sounds, but he's also a great modern player.

[pubylakeg]

My cheesy comments on this,

Once upon a time, bebop was avant-garde...

Personally, I'm just glad that those "avant gardists" that Malone criticized, have the freedom, and motivation to do something so unconventional. I love eccentrics.(And more importantly, societies which tolerate them)

And on a musical note, it's the sickening, INANE, dumbed down, commercialized, talent show, pre pubescent corrupting, sensationalist, attention seeking shite, now being churned out on a mass basis and marketed as music that raises my hackles.

[rictroll]

Can you recommend anything with Malone playing in a modern context?

He is a great player but I've never heard anything by him that steps outside of the mainstream/ traditional bag.

[ecj]

Can you recommend anything with Malone playing in a modern context?

He is a great player but I've never heard anything by him that steps outside of the mainstream/ traditional bag.

Both times I saw him live it was mostly like this, with a couple nice ballads thrown in.

[rictroll]

Thanks, ecj.

[princeplanet]

..... so could it be we are just not ready for 12 tone experiments..

You're kidding, right? They've only been around for nearly a century....

Getting back to the discussion about Conceptual Art, I've always thought it should be in a separate category to Fine Art. Any "concept" can only be as good as one's interpretation, to the point where the art's maker is not the artist, the viewer is.

If, by Art, we wish to express more specific ideas and/or emotions, then the Art is successful if it purposefully conveys said idea or emotion. But the skill it requires is not necessarily manual skill, let's call it artistic skill- the skill with which we know how an audience may respond. Satie, although not as complicated or technically demanding as Rachmaninoff, is equally successful at evoking strong emotional responses (if not moreso). Just saying that it's not just good technique that makes good art...

[wolflen]

Smith didn't like the way he was hot-dogging and showing off on the first tune they played, so he called "Laura" in a weird key to teach Malone the lesson that he still had a lot to learn.


yep.."laura" was one of those languages..

[MarkRhodes]

Saw this on Facebook. Couldn't resist posting it here.

Attachment 23309

[fumblefingers]

I just think ridicule is the lowest form of education. It says "What you are and what you strive to express is a joke to me." and for those in your corner, the belittling is a way of enforcing "our" stand.

Again, i'm not on facebook (which is for horny teenagers and bored housewives, or is it the other way around?) so i can't see Malone's comments, but:

did he ridicule the art or the person?


I realize that a lot of artists can't separate the two, but they are simply not the same.

[dasein]

i can't imagine disliking Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg because they're too dissonant. missing out...

The first sentence of this post may be part of the problem; they HAVE been around for nearly a century.
Schuller saw the light and changed his music accordingly, and as of his death this year, he had more than twenty commissions that he was working on fulfilling.

uh, Gunther never stopped using 12-tone rows. EVERY single composition he wrote since his Violin Concerto in 1976 not only uses a row, but it's the exact same row

[Bluedawg]

look, your video is nothing but a recap of joseph goebbels' (you can google him) stance on "degenerate art". the comparison of several pieces of art reminds eerily of the 1938 exhibition of "entartete kunst" in berlin.

here's the nazi's definition of degenerate art: works, that " (...) destroy or confuse natural form or simply reveal an absence of adequate manual and artistic skill". sounds familiar, doesn't it?

in germany we've already had *two* regimes in the last 100 years, where the ruling dictators ordered what *real* art was and what wasn't. no thanks.

In the US we have a saying .... "Even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then"

Even people as evil and terrible as the Nazis had a point now and then ....

The Autobahns built by the Nazis and the modern highways modeled after them in other countries are quite useful

Goebbels had a point when it comes to modern art ..... it doesn't make us a Nazi if we agree with him about something as innocuous as art

And even if we agree with Goebbels about art, most of us certainly don't want the government telling us what is or isn't good art .... we can decide that for ourselves

And I find some avant-gard music and art to be quite wonderful ... and some of it to be rather gruesome or just plain bad ....

hopefully time will weed out the bad stuff and the good stuff will stay with us as new artists learn from the mistakes and the successes and push the horizons outwards to new forms of beauty

[sgcim]

i can't imagine disliking Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg because they're too dissonant. missing out...



uh, Gunther never stopped using 12-tone rows. EVERY single composition he wrote since his Violin Concerto in 1976 not only uses a row, but it's the exact same row

That's true, but he stopped following Schoenberg's rules, such as the ridiculous rule that you can't repeat a note until the twelve tone row has been sounded.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

In the US we have a saying .... "Even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then"

Even people as evil and terrible as the Nazis had a point now and then ....

The Autobahns built by the Nazis and the modern highways modeled after them in other countries are quite useful

Goebbels had a point when it comes to modern art ..... it doesn't make us a Nazi if we agree with him about something as innocuous as art

And even if we agree with Goebbels about art, most of us certainly don't want the government telling us what is or isn't good art .... we can decide that for ourselves

And I find some avant-gard music and art to be quite wonderful ... and some of it to be rather gruesome or just plain bad ....

hopefully time will weed out the bad stuff and the good stuff will stay with us as new artists learn from the mistakes and the successes and push the horizons outwards to new forms of beauty

you made my point in the most spine-chilling way.

[smokinguit]

If something sounds like bullshit or looks like bullshit (in the case of a lot of modern art), I'm going to call it bullshit. I'm not going to be PC. I like people that "tell it like it is". I agree with Russell Malone and Pat Metheny (on Kenny G's music).

[pushkar000]

To point out here - Russell Malone has previously supported avant-garde music, specifically that of Mary Halvorsen's.

[Bluedawg]

you made my point in the most spine-chilling way.

So if we don't like crappy art (sometimes literally crappy) we're a bunch of Nazis? .... because, you know, Goebbels

I guess you avoid using the Autobahn, too .... because the first bits were built by Nazis ....


And you seem to keep missing the point ... we don't want the government deciding what is good art or not ... and we're not going to make people stop trying new kinds of art .. even crappy art

If you want to make crappy art that's fine by me ... don't expect me to like or it .. or spend or donate money on it ... and if the government wants to use our tax dollars on it we're going to fuss about it

[DRS]

I wish I'd never gone to Malone's FB page. Love his playing but some of the stuff he posts is downright vulgar.

[christianm77]

Russell Malone posted a couple interesting videos on his facebook. The first was of an avant-garde performance along with "I know some critics, and a few charlatan musicians who will try very hard to find some value in this. But no matter how hard one may try, you cannot polish a turd." A couple days later he posted a video of, what certainly appears to be, himself outright mocking the previous video: "New avant-garde composer Colon Bowel performing the first of three movements. This one took place after lunch at In-N-Out Burger." Here's a link to his Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/russell.malone.121?fref=ts

I'm curious what you all think. I think there's people on here who would simply think it's funny and true, and others who find it pretty distasteful and unnerving.

My take: Mr. Malone has worked extremely hard mastering the art of playing soaring music within strict confines, and I would imagine that he feels that certain avant-garde performers who throw out the window the entire craft side of this art form, in a way, make a mockery of the work he put in mastering that craft.

At the same time, I have to say I do find his last video distasteful. This is his personal FB page, and he has the right to post anything he wants; absolutely. However, he is a public figure with thousands of fans around the world following, and has chosen to make his FB page open to the public. Not that what anyone thinks ultimately matters, he obviously doesn't care, and I think that's great. I think what prompted me to write this post is that I'm simply disappointed that someone I look up to as an artist behaving so disrespectfully. I'm not butt-hurt, outraged, or anything else like that.

Russell Malone's opinion aside, what is your opinion of avant-garde music? Are they just art wanna-bes who are trying to take a short-cut to earning some sort of artistic prestige without mastering a craft? Are critics and musicians who look for meaning in it necessarily charlatans?

This could be an interesting discussion as long as it remains respectful.

In the words of Jim Mullen 'it's just a load a of squeaky bonk!'

Me, I'm a hippy. I spent a week during the summer doing free improvised music and I enjoy the process and the liberation. I think it's really good for the ears and to examine the art of improvisation in isolation away from stylistic and technical considerations, with musicians who are often new to improvisation. It can be extremely powerful and moving sometimes, to be part of a group doing this. Music therapists use improvisation as a form of therapy.

I have no desire to perform this type of music in public. I don't listen to it much, but there are some people who do this professionally, some of them friends and colleagues. They see value in it.

With due respect to Russell Malone, there is such a thing as improvisation beyond the stylistic remit of jazz. Many free improvisors would be as unmoved by Mallone's music as he is by theirs. That's cool. Music world bitchiness? Less so.

(Unless it's funny of course ;-))

EDIT: there seems to be a big overlap between early (20's) musicians and free players. Quite a few guys play both and nothing in between - it's interesting. In both cases the music is about the sound of the ensemble, while in mainstream modern stuff, the individualist improviser is the focal point.

[christianm77]

That's true, but he stopped following Schoenberg's rules, such as the ridiculous rule that you can't repeat a note until the twelve tone row has been sounded.

I'm sorry, but regarding the 'ridiculousness' of Schoenberg's rules - isn't a Fugue ridiculous? Why do you have to have the voices entering in one after the other, and what is all that stuff about Parallel Fifths?

I always feel like I want to stand up for Arnold. Such a great musician, totally self taught, deep thinker, obstinate and headstrong. And I love his music, his 12 tone stuff has incredible classical balance and poise to it. The modernists hated it, ironically, as much as the conservatives.

Yes the 12 tone system is ridiculous, I guess, but listening to Gurrelieder I can see why Arnie saw it necessary to play with a handicap. He had to give everyone else a chance ;-)

[christianm77]

I've seen plenty of avant-garde musicians play very well. Many of them can play straightahead if they wanted to. Often, the "concept" is fundamentally the same, even if the form and content may be different. When it is successful, the concept involves musicians who really know how to listen to each other and have a genuine and engaging dialogue, even if the The musical outcome appears to be, at first glance, more dissociative and possibly even chaotic. . Those qualities certainly are not gimmicks, even if there appears to be a lot of gimmickry in a lot of this sort of thing.

Really looking forward to hearing Muhal Richard Abrams big band play on Sunday At Jazz Fest. The collaborators, for Roscoe Mitchell to Henry Threadgil, are about the furthest one can find from being frauds. When it's good, it's really good.

Roscoe Mitchell is fucking great.

[christianm77]

Malone has some interesting comments on a wide variety of jazz guitarists in this 2011 Jazz Times "Before and After" feature.

Malone's comments are really insightful and intelligent here, and gracious. But is it possible that he's just being super nice and polite and 'on the record'?

[destinytot]

you made my point in the most spine-chilling way.

I respect differing points of view, but although I may well share feelings about those b*stards the Nazis (my family tree details German ancestry going back to the 16th century), I honestly don't understand how your point was supported. Could I respectfully ask you to spell out how? Thanks and best wishes in advance.