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I'm looking to discover some more guitarists that have that real outside feel to their playing. Of course, they need to be able to pull it back in for it to sound good. Share your favorite guitar players that have a real outside feel to their playing.
Some of the ones that pop out to me are:
Pat Martino
Lenny Breau
Mike Walker
From more of a fusion setting:
Jimmy Herring
Guthrie Govan
Greg Howe
Who are your favorites?
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03-06-2015 11:03 AM
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I Can't say I hear Martino, Breau, Govan or Howe as outside. I don't know the other two.
Off the top of my head, guys who play out well include Marc Ducret, Sonny Sharrock, Jeff Parker, Joe Morris, James Blood Ulmer. If you mean more mainstream guys who have an extended control of harmony and patterns, all the young guys Kreisberg, Lund, Hekselman, Rosenwinkel, etc. Of course, Metheny has done everything well.
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I'll throw in Tim Miller and Ben Monder.
And based players you listed, I'm guessing you will enjoy this one. Around the 6 minute mark, Ben kicks on the Rat throws in some outside shredding.
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What is Outside that is drasticly different from person to person and for how long you have been listening to music. What I thought was Outside years ago is very inside to my ears now. I'm with pkirk don't think Martino, Breau are outside and don't like Govan at all. I'm with boognish23 and say Tim Miller and Ben Monder are very interesting that some would say are Outside, they are just more excellent modern players to me.
To me today Outside is more Free Jazz, Free Improv, Free Expression to me like Dom Minasi and our own Harvey Valdes and Mark Kleinhaut.
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I was waiting for the "cool kid" answer (sorry docbop, but I hadda)
I dig that as one's harmonic pallete expands, the concepts of inside and outside get blurry--but I think in terms of tension of resolution--or to be colloquial-- "that sounds cool" vs. "what the hell was that?"
To me, there is no "outside" without "inside," that is, if you establish a consonant melody then you can go "outside," creating intentional dissonance.
Note for note, few players make me pick up an eyebrow and say "ooh, I gotta figure that one out" more than Kriesberg. He really has that balance of consonance/dissonance.
I got inspired by a cat on Jam of the Week this week, and I downloaded a free tanpura app to my phone, and I've spent a lot of time this week just playing with a drone, listening to how each note I play "rubs" against the "tonic" (or the tonic and a fifth, as is the case in the tanpura usually)
I'm sure there's folks out there who feel liberated by weighing all 12 tones more equally, but I love push and pull in music, pretty and ugly, fast and slow...contrasts.
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not Shure what outside is either.. in the jazz world I mostly listen to sax players like coz.. and sanborn .. and bass cats. I like them all. Stanly Clark is on tour by the way.... guitar players it is Steve Via, and MIB . But their music is all over the place a pushing the boundaries of what a guitar can do and music it self.. which categorizing music now days is kind of crazy...the spirit of the classical musicians lives in jazz fusion and neo-classical ..
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outside...
We have to hear solos of few guitarists playing the same chord changes.
After that we can decide who really playing out.
anway for me nr one is Scof.
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I've mentioned before, and I think it's worth mentioning again, outside, to me-- is about "intent." Deliberately playing up a half step...using a visual pattern instead of following a melodic line...anticipating or extending past the barline, expecting dissonance...
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Joe Pass isn't thought of as outside player but when I heard him live some of his reharm's of tunes were way out there. One night I heard him and if you didn't know the melodies of the songs and kept them in mind you'd never know where he was till he came back and restated the melody to end a tune.
I were all in agreement that Outside can cover a lot of territory.
I was reading an thing the other day talking about Beethoven and Bach were great improvisers of their time and could sit and improvise in real time and enjoyed doing it. Being no recording devices back then we only have scores and some written improvised sections they wrote. So interesting to contemplate what was outside for their time.
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Yeah good points on outside being different to different people. Perhaps part of the fun of this thread will be exploring what others hear as 'outside.' Personally, I agree with Jeff that I like the push/pull that stepping outside does, which implies that your toes do land back in consonance-land at some point. So, by nature, that ratio of in vs. out is going to be a grey area for different ears and tastes on how far out and how long.
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I think for most of us who stay on the edge of what is going on musically there is no outside anymore.. many players grow to a certain point then stop..for some of them anyone moving forward is outside. and now for some reason the song "your so vain " is in my mind.
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I did an outside gig in November once. It was awful.
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Derek Bailey was so outside they locked the door and threw away the key.
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I'm not knowledgeable on the history of music, but I think these are interesting listenings: Originally Posted by docbop
(known as the "Dissonace Quartet" after the famous introduction)
Surely in Beethoven's late works as well as in Wagner there's much music that seems to be quite outside.
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I tend toward 20th Century like Berg, Webern, Schoenberg, Partch. When I spent a short time studying film scoring I was listening to a lot Bach fugues. Originally Posted by Fidelcaster
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Hmmm... Not sure what outside is exactly.
Outside for me is I suppose stepping outside of the changes while keeping the form? There has to be an inside to be outside to if that makes sense - so to call Schoenberg or Derek Bailey 'outside' isn't how I understand it.
Outside is the type of thing I do on Rhythm Changes or Caravan when I've run out of ideas. Which in the latter case is very quickly. I must actually practice that tune haha.
I find with outside playing you actually need more of a pattern - intervallic often - than when you are inside, but that might be me.
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No need to overthink. Out of tune, out of key, out, outside.
it means that you aren't playing in the logical, expected key or key center, and as was said above, intentionally.
someone like a Derek Bailey, or Mary Halvorson may be more accurately thought of as playing in an atonal or free fashion. In other words, there may not even be a key to be out of.Last edited by fumblefingers; 03-07-2015 at 01:58 AM.
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ha...
is playing outside making sense is really outside?
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Hard to get more "outside" than this guy ...
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Hey guys,
I've just got a book on this. To be honest there's not much musical material here, but the book seems to quite deep philosophically. I'm not sure if I quite understand how to apply it in my playing. Has anyone else tried using this method?
https://wordery.com/playing-outside-...t9caArPp8P8HAQ
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Originally Posted by christianm77
+1...:-)
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IF you know and can play inside try to play outside.
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I love Kreisberg and agree that he has such a great feel and harmonic sensibility.
But I still think this is some of the coolest outside playing:
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Originally Posted by christianm77
It's a great method, but watch out for the diatonic indoor police.
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