John Mclaughlin's "Cherokee"

**Pat Clare** · 08-25-2014, 04:21 PM

Patrick 2 put up a version of Cherokee a few months ago from a local New Jersey guitarist that was about the best I've ever heard. I don't remember his name but hopefully Patrick will re post it.

**AlsoRan** · 08-25-2014, 04:22 PM

Besides the great demo, and I am happy to see that you hold the pick in the traditional way, yet still get a really good tone.

More evidence for me that the traditional grip can work for high speed picking.

Count me among the group that liked John's video, and the way he smiled and showed confidence. I call that "star quality."

**Philco** · 08-25-2014, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

Besides the great demo, and I am happy to see that you hold the pick in the traditional way, yet still get a really good tone.

More evidence for me that the traditional grip can work for high speed picking.

Count me among the group that liked John's video, and the way he smiled and showed confidence. I call that "star quality."

Traditional grip is just fine...

and now for some more traditional bop language…….

**AlsoRan** · 08-25-2014, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Philco

Traditional grip is just fine...

Believe me, I made sure to see his pick grip as well, as I am doing with all players that display great technique and dexterity.

**fumblefingers** · 08-25-2014, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by fritz jones

Tal's phrasing on this recording is so much hipper than Pass and JM.
Not to detract from Joe, obviously he was a master, but Tal at his prime had a special way of playing fast bebop.

no doubt. the quintessential be-bop guitarist?

**fumblefingers** · 08-25-2014, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Dutchbopper

I had a go at a really fast Cherokee a while ago and dudes, it's hard to play meaningful shit then. This one ain't perfect but I did not fancy another take though

A certain sloppyness creeps in soon enough at these superfast tempi, even with the likes of Tal.

Regards,

DB

i would listen to you in a smoky jazz club anytime. at 1:48 - 1:50 that sounded a bit like a Joe Pass lick.

anyway, very nice.

**fumblefingers** · 08-25-2014, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Philco

Traditional grip is just fine...

and now for some more traditional bop language…….

geez louise. don't mess with Andreas. nuts.

**Patrick2** · 08-26-2014, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Pat Clare

Patrick 2 put up a version of Cherokee a few months ago from a local New Jersey guitarist that was about the best I've ever heard. I don't remember his name but hopefully Patrick will re post it.

Are you sure this it was me? I don't remember posting a local NJ guitarist performing Cherokee.?.? Some of the NJ jazz guitarists I've posted vids of were; Vinnie Corrao, Harry Leahey, Bob Ferry, Tal, Bucky . . . can't seem to remember any of Cherokee though.

**ecj** · 08-26-2014, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

geez louise. don't mess with Andreas. nuts.

Oberg is just freakin' nuts. True guitarist's guitarist. I tried to copy his picking hand for a while, but couldn't figure out how he gets it working. Sometimes he sounds like Benson on speed.

**Pat Clare** · 08-26-2014, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Are you sure this it was me? I don't remember posting a local NJ guitarist performing Cherokee.?.? Some of the NJ jazz guitarists I've posted vids of were; Vinnie Corrao, Harry Leahey, Bob Ferry, Tal, Bucky . . . can't seem to remember any of Cherokee though.

Patrick, this is the one I was thinking of but he's not playing cherokee

**Patrick2** · 08-26-2014, 12:03 PM

Yeah . . I remember posting that. I think Joe Federico is a Philly guy. He's a monster technician . . (and traditional picking technique, not Benson technique). His hand-eye coordination and the coordination between left and right hands is just amazing. All that speed and very clean too!! However, I'd probably walk out of one of his performances just as quickly as I did John Mclaughlin's . . . and for the very same reasons. Federico does have some very musical moments. However, more often than not, I have to search too hard to find the music among all of those notes played at hyper speeds. Although, I do like his L5 CES! ;-)

**wintermoon** · 08-26-2014, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Yeah . . I remember posting that. I think Joe Federico is a Philly guy. He's a monster technician . . (and traditional picking technique, not Benson technique). His hand-eye coordination and the coordination between left and right hands is just amazing. All that speed and very clean too!! However, I'd probably walk out of one of his performances just as quickly as I did John Mclaughlin's . . . and for the very same reasons. Federico does have some very musical moments. However, more often than not, I have to search too hard to find the music among all of those notes played at hyper speeds. Although, I do like his L5 CES! ;-)

maybe in that video, but he's no dedicated speed monger.

"Federico does have some very musical moments"
^ this.

long time Philly guy and taught 1/2 the guitar players around here--he's almost the dean of jazz teachers in town
the guy's got serious talent/knowledge, I saw him sub for Barney Kessel once and he was a-mazing.

**Patrick2** · 08-26-2014, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

maybe in that video, but he's no dedicated speed monger.

"Federico does have some very musical moments"
^ this.

long time Philly guy and taught 1/2 the guitar players around here--he's almost the dean of jazz teachers in town
the guy's got serious talent/knowledge, I saw him sub for Barney Kessel once and he was a-mazing.

I have no doubt that he's a great player. I've never seen him in person, only videos. All the videos I've seen of him were pretty much what this one was. If you can point me to some thing without the pyrotechniques I'd love to see it. Is he also a Cinderella deciple? I kow that many of the older Jersey and Philly players are.

**Patrick2** · 08-26-2014, 02:36 PM

Thanks for digging that up for me Pat. Love his chord work. Can't tolerate his single note lines.

**wintermoon** · 08-26-2014, 03:58 PM

performance aside, I can't think of too many higher on the teaching chain in Philly.

Joe Sgro and Dennis Sandole are gone, Tom Giacabetti had been ill and Sonny Troy and my old teacher Bob Dinardo are long retired from teaching.

Federico was one of Sandole' students back in the day.
Dennis wasn't a virtuoso performer either, but I think we can all agree on his teaching and compositon resume which is about second to none..

**wintermoon** · 08-26-2014, 05:08 PM

I don't know him personally, but his teaching credentials are pretty much indisputable from what I've heard over the yrs.

I know I wouldn't want to read some of these comments about myself.
if you feel the need you can always delete your own posts.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-26-2014, 05:23 PM

Let's veer back to the topic of the thread and regard this digression on Joseph Federico as fruitless but finished.

**sgcim** · 08-27-2014, 07:15 PM

Here's Jimmy Raney's Cherokee:

You have to listen closely to appreciate it, but every note is there.
I listened to it three times in a row, and each time I got more out of it.
JR has a recording of it on one of his old LPs from the 50s at about the same tempo, and one of his original tunes is based on the changes to Cherokee. He played it with Getz many times.
The bop guys like Farlow and Raney were like Kamikaze pilots on tunes like this, and their versions clock in at insane tempos. Farlow's tempo was 352bpm, and Raney's was about 340bpm, but he didn't have a pianist to fall back on.

I use Ralph Patt's backing tracks to practice Cherokee every day, and it took me almost a year to get it to the point where I can play it pretty well at 340bpm- on a good day!

There are versions by Kessel, Smith and Robert Conti on youtube that are good, but they play it at tempos that are much tamer