George Benson & Carlos Santana

**jds1978** · 07-09-2014, 08:09 PM

Kinda hard to watch. I saw this years ago and had the same reaction....turned it off at around the 2:00 minute mark after Carlos hits the gain stage on his Mesa. Santana is a beautiful player. No shame in this though....he's going way out of his usual element on a song that had yet to really seep into the pop culture zeitgeist.

If you really want to have fun, try to imagine Jeff Beck sitting in on this number on live TV circa 1976

**MarkRhodes** · 07-09-2014, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by jds1978

If you really want to have fun, try to imagine Jeff Beck sitting in on this number on live TV circa 1976

I saw Jeff Beck live circa 1976 on the "Wired" tour with the Jan Hammer group. He wasn't a jazz cat, despite covering Mingus's "Goodbye Porkpie Hat", but he could definitely handle groove tunes. I think he would have handled that much better than Carlos did.

**LeftysBlues** · 07-10-2014, 04:11 AM

Do you think George Benson can play a solo without a load of cheesy licks? Why not have a poll about that?
Basically a very talented man with questionable artistic taste.
How about Gimme the Night or his other hit
Cheesin,

Is that your idea of creative music?
Lay off Carlos will ya....

**Jabberwocky** · 07-10-2014, 05:49 AM

I've been looking for GB's studded guitar strap for decades! Anybody know where I can find one?

Oh, back to the poll.

Lay off GB. Man has "questionable artistic taste" because ...whatever pays the bills, man. Please, what kind of cheese goes well with the whine?

**Vladan** · 07-10-2014, 07:57 AM

Yes, the only probkem GB has is he loves money a bit too much. Luckily enough, he splits it per sobg, so you can easily program yor player to "no cheese at all". I wish he did it per album, to spare me programing part, but good enough, all in all. For the matter of cheese = money,, do you think Carlos is any better than GB?

**jds1978** · 07-10-2014, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I saw Jeff Beck live circa 1976 on the "Wired" tour with the Jan Hammer group. He wasn't a jazz cat, despite covering Mingus's "Goodbye Porkpie Hat", but he could definitely handle groove tunes. I think he would have handled that much better than Carlos did.

Saw Beck-Ola a few years back....astounding. 'Breezin' is so.....polite?!? I'm trying to imagine those big bends and tremolo manipulation that Beck does against this song, let alone the plexi's JB favors. We also have to remember that when this clip was shot, Breezin' was a new song. Nowadays, even people who aren't familiar with Benson know the melody. To me, Carlos seems a victim of TV & record industry pressure here: the suits wanted 'Breezin' to sell
even though CS & GB would probably be better suited to 'Afro Blue' or any number of latin style standards. The audience gets what the exec's want instead of what would be best for everyone.

I don't think it's a question as to whether or not Santana can groove....just watch the Woodstock clip. He is just out of his element on a song he isn't familiar with. I know that I can definitely relate

**MarkRhodes** · 07-10-2014, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by jds1978

We also have to remember that when this clip was shot, Breezin' was a new song. Nowadays, even people who aren't familiar with Benson know the melody. To me, Carlos seems a victim of TV & record industry pressure here: the suits wanted 'Breezin' to sell
even though CS & GB would probably be better suited to 'Afro Blue' or any number of latin style standards. The audience gets what the exec's want instead of what would be best for everyone.

Well, Benson was the star of that show. He would be expected to do his new stuff. I think Carlos should have either a) learned the tune beforehand, or b) not joined George for that tune. If someone asks you to play a tune you don't know, the best thing to say is, "I don't know that tune, so thanks, but no thanks." Perhaps suggest an alternative---say, a standard or blues to jam on as the show fades out....

(Some jazz guys come up in bands where they're not told what the tune is and have to 'sink or swim', but that's not Carlos's background.)

**Vladan** · 07-10-2014, 09:37 PM

To JDS1978, it wa never a question weather Carlos can grove. We all know he does. The question was weather he grooved in this particular clip.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-10-2014, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Well, Benson was the star of that show. He would be expected to do his new stuff. I think Carlos should have either a) learned the tune beforehand, or b) not joined George for that tune. If someone asks you to play a tune you don't know, the best thing to say is, "I don't know that tune, so thanks, but no thanks." Perhaps suggest an alternative---say, a standard or blues to jam on as the show fades out....

(Some jazz guys come up in bands where they're not told what the tune is and have to 'sink or swim', but that's not Carlos's background.)

Whats to know? It's a I vi ii V...

**edh** · 07-10-2014, 10:14 PM

Carlos is a monster player in his genre. It's the groove on this tune that CS can't seem to get into.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-11-2014, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Whats to know? It's a I vi ii V...

I agree it's easy but Carlos seemed lost all the same.

**GuyBoden** · 07-11-2014, 12:20 PM

At his best:

**Patrick2** · 07-11-2014, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Well, Benson was the star of that show. He would be expected to do his new stuff. I think Carlos should have either a) learned the tune beforehand, or b) not joined George for that tune. If someone asks you to play a tune you don't know, the best thing to say is, "I don't know that tune, so thanks, but no thanks." Perhaps suggest an alternative---say, a standard or blues to jam on as the show fades out....

(Some jazz guys come up in bands where they're not told what the tune is and have to 'sink or swim', but that's not Carlos's background.)

I really don't agree with any of what was said in the above post. George Benson was not at all the star of that performance. He definitely played *his* song . . written by/for him and specific to his genre . . better than Carlos did. But, I saw two stars on that stage . . . not just one. What I saw on that stage was two super star guitar players, playing their guitars each in their own unique way . . which is pretty much what made them the super star guitar players they are.

Carlos was asked to join George on stage. He did so. George obviously selected a a song of his own that would be both highly recognizable by the audience . . (a far better choice that just a blues jam) . . and also, in consideration of Carlos' lack of jazz back ground, a song that he felt would be easiest for Carlos to get through with little or no advance preperation. As Mr. B asked, what's to know? It a basic 4 chord vamp. They were on stage to play guitar and make guitar music for their adoring fans . . not to have their lines or their groove assessed. Just two guitar players, playing guitar.

Carlos made a fortune and carved out a place in music history by doing nothing more that creating melodic phrases utilizing the dorian mode and pents. That's who he is . . that's what he does. He knows that and he's obviously comfortable with it. GB knew that when he invited him to join him on stage. I seriously doubt that George went back stage and said to his rhythm section . . "Damn man, Carlos couldn't find the groove in that song to save his life". So then, why should we choose to judge Carlos' performance?

I remember seeing a video of Tal where Larry Carlton and Sco joined him on stage. Larry and Sco were definitely NOT playing Tal orientated music. There were times in that particular performance when Tal too seemed a bit out of his element. Who cares? The audience didn't seem to mind. They got to see LC, Sco and Tal on the same stage at the same time.

I said it earlier and I'll say it again, this is a thread I really wish was never even started . . (apologies Vladan. I mean you no disrespect . . but, this is just how I feel)

**GuyBoden** · 07-11-2014, 12:44 PM

I agree, this?

**Vladan** · 07-11-2014, 01:50 PM

Patric, no problem with me, just lezt me remind you, it's been almost 40 years since the event, I mean, more tabooed stuff than one grooveless performance by super mega emperror of guitar gets assessed in that time. I really see no problem in discussing other people's performance.

As far as what GB said back stage, I don't know, but somehow I imagine GB and CS in the backstage saying lots of "sh****" words, laughing, saying lots of "WTF",
and so on, ... and then .... CS saiying, "man, I could not find it to save my life", than lots of sh**** anf f*** again, then they both laugh and go away to have some sex and drugs, and of course, to count the money.

Something like that.

**Patrick2** · 07-11-2014, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Vladan

Patric, no problem with me, just lezt me remind you, it's been almost 40 years since the event, I mean, more tabooed stuff than one grooveless performance by super mega emperror of guitar gets assessed in that time. I really see no problem in discussing other people's performance.

As far as what GB said back stage, I don't know, but somehow I imagine GB and CS in the backstage saying lots of "sh****" words, laughing, saying lots of "WTF",
and so on, ... and then .... CS saiying, "man, I could not find it to save my life", than lots of sh**** anf f*** again, then they both laugh and go away to have some sex and drugs, and of course, to count the money.

Something like that.

OK . . that's cool. I too don't see anything wrong with discussing an artist's performance. I do however find fault with someone starting a thread specifically to trash an artist's performance.

Regarding what they said and did back stage . . We'll never really know. I'm sure we both wish we could have been there to see and hear it. But, I seriously doubt that drugs were part of that back stage meeting. Carlos got clean and remained clean not too long after he, Sly Stone and Steven Stills were given the "Silver Spoon" award by Rolling Stone Magazine . . way back in the day. At least that's what's been reported about Carlos (his being clean) for decades now.

As for the conversation . . I'd like to think it went something along the lines of . . . "Hey man, that was a lot of fun. Let's do it again sometime soon".

GB has shared the stage with people far less talented and capable than Carlos during the course his career with guitarists.

**JGL** · 11-30-2014, 08:21 PM

I voted no. I think he'd been better off choosing a different "sound" instead of a "Santana" setup. I don't no how a fuzz box is supposed to inspire anyone to feel anything jazzy -lol. Bet he'd been better if he'd made an honest attempt. Just my HO.

**mjo** · 12-25-2019, 08:07 PM

lol- I'm a bit surprised to see this here
That was, pretty much classic Santana. They all knew what they were getting into
...you may find it a bit primitive and shocking.... but that's rock & roll...

Cheers,
Mike
(full disclosure: I love the Misty clip with Farlow and Carlton)