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I never really listened to a lot of Bill Frisell. I stumbled upon this performance.
I have listened to a ton of Scofield. If I had shut my eyes I might have called Scofield instead of Frisell. After a second listen I see that Sco plucks his strings much harder than Friesell but there is definitely a similarity there.
I think it's the way Frisell chords his 2 and 3 note progression/harmonies. And then there's that "I'm going to church" progression that Sco loves. It's almost a major - diminished/alt - minor etc progression.
Was Scofield influenced by Frisell?? Anyone know?
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11-08-2013 05:18 PM
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Not in any direct way. They are contemporaries, having played together in Bass Desires. They are both part first generation of the newer generation of modern players who really embrace their rock roots as much as jazz. They're like brothers of that generation; they came out of a common environment (they're both the same age) but very different brothers who've gone their own way from the start.
I've known them both for nearly 30 years now and their musical voices over that time have been both evolutionary and very individual. Of course they share a common lineage and approach but I feel they've arrived at this point with a great awareness and respect for one another, but not so much "influence" in any direct way. As a matter of fact, when we were reminiscing about his introduction to jazz and the first days in Boston, Bill said it was hearing Mick for the first time that his strong directions were formed. Jon Damian's very expansive approach to the instrument can also be heard very clearly. He also mentioned that Terje Rypdal too, was an influence a little later on when he was living in Europe and developing a sound with Manfred and the ECM people. Listen to In Line, and the recordings of that vintage and you'll hear what I mean. I met Bill when he first began working with Paul Motian and that was an experience that gave him such an open harmonic approach. Oh yeah, and put Hendrix up there on his list of heavy influences.
Sco on the other hand has told me his biggest influences have been horn players. Listen to early recordings like Solar Energy, Live, his small group recordings with NOHP and the great trio days with Adam Nussbaum and Steve Swallow and you'll recognize the assimilation of Coltrane's harmonic language, something not many guitarists were doing at the time. Sco's been the formative force behind a number of musical movements in jazz guitar, always maintaining a very recognizable voice of his own.
I always considered the two of them as spiritual alter egos, in the same way that Coltrane and Eric Dolphy were: Scofield having a very almost Coltranesque approach to harmony and Bill being so very linear and lyrical in the way that Dolphy was a compliment. They also have in common an early education at Berklee when the great influential teachers were Mick Goodrick and Jon Damian.
By the way, that era is quickly coming to a close as both those teaching giants are in their final years at Berklee before retirement in the next couple of years.
DavidLast edited by TH; 11-09-2013 at 01:19 AM.
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Ahhhhhh! Thanks for the piece of info! Great interpretation of the old Beatles classic!!!
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I would say yes. I doubt in a direct copying kind of way, but I definitely think he was. There are so many interviews where Scofield is bragging on Frisell.
Last edited by Melodic Dreamer; 11-09-2013 at 09:49 AM.
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Also worth noting: their collaboration on Scofield's Grace Under Pressure (Blue Note, 1992).
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Here is the tittle track, found on YouTube:
Last edited by ES125er; 11-09-2013 at 05:38 AM.
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Not knocking anyone's playing style, but he's adding far too much improv into this rendition
(Days of Wine and Roses), which makes the tune almost unrecognisable.
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How long did you listen Daniel? He plays the melody much straighter about halfway in...
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Mr. beaumont, with all due respect...
I must admit, I didn't listen to it all the way through..I got bored...yes bored. This is my opinion, take it for what it's worth, but perhaps if it was a 5 minute intro..no.. not even that, because he didn't play it as a theme, and then expand on it..he expanded on it right from beginning.
To a listener not familiar with the tune, it may be ok to say "oh... he's playing Days of Wine and Roses", but to somebody who was waiting for the familiar chords and melody line...it didn't seem to come where it was supposed to.
Now this IS Henry Mancini's Wine and Roses played by the Wes Montgomery Trio (with Mel Rhyne)
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That's a great version...but this IS jazz, after all. Personally, I like when people mess with the "play the head, improvise a few choruses, play the head " formula.
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I listened to it again to ensure my opinion of his playing style was not prematurely harsh. Yes he is technically a good player...but this to me is more like "adlib" playing, not mainstream jazz. It's like opening a bottle of fine wine that you have drank before...but..you are waiting..waiting to be satisfied..and it never seems to come, even though you are still drinking it. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I know my explanation is a strange analogy..ie" What does it have to do with jazz..but I can't find a good explanation for it right now.
Now here is Herb Ellis with his own rendition...you can still follow the theme in his chords..
intro based on the theme..variations on the theme...and back to the theme just before the ending.
and jazz master Henry Johnson.(.a big Wes fan obviously)....it's a bit upbeat, but he states the theme..and then goes into his solo..setting the theme in my mind by his opening into the song...
so I'm listening...Henry kinda stops his solo and the other guitar player with the flying fingers
takes over..BUT is he staying with the theme or going off on his tangent? Yes I like fast runs..
but they don't make for good musical listening..only to express how fast you can play scales..
finally Henry comes in to stop the "guitar genius" and brings us back to the theme of Wine and
Roses...
Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 11-09-2013 at 09:54 AM.
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You must be a fan of free jazz /avante garde jazz then? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I like a lot of it, yes. I also don't feel there's anything particularly free or avant garde about Frizzell ' performance here.
To the OP, I have definitely listened to more Fri than Sco, so this sounded like Frisell right away to me...can you point out any recordings where Sco plays more like this?
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A really interesting discussion here. This is one of my favourite tunes. I've played it countless times and I don't anymore because it's so beautiful that it seems an injustice to play it if I don't have anything to say.
I've heard Bill play this many times. His version on Is That You is simply gorgeous to my ear. But I will say that to play a tune night after night, and every time come up with some aspect of the tune, the transition of a chord, the emergence of a section that makes you see the tune in a way that I haven't even thought of, and be so true to the tune that it's a true collaboration between composer and player's composition... that's something to be aspired to. That's something I see as a constant in Bill's playing.
Bill had a wonderful tune he wrote early on, Throughout, that used to be a part of his book. Some time in the mid 90's he stopped playing it. When I had once asked him if he'd play it again, he told me something that amounted to the fact that the piece was too close to him for him watch it turn into a performance piece. Or something along that vein. If he does play it now, it's always special, fresh and insightful. Often the head is only stated at the end. It's a conversation that defies the obvious and captures a sense of discovery with the audience. They can share in the beauty of the many layers of the music without being told "This is what I'm doing, let me play the head and then 2 variations."
In the clip of the OP, I hear individual phrases, each a poetic statement, and a lot of space. There's something Monk-ish in the take of it. There's also something very respectful, of the piece, of the genre, of his own vocabulary and of the audience I think. Some obviously won't see it this way, but it embodies so many qualities of what I like about jazz-and high on the list is the surprize of unexpected insight and beauty. The control of the bass line, the very careful choice of minimal harmonic voicing, the weaving of melodic material from Mancini's melody, and the placement of these things in a story that leads to the head being stated in the end.
That's just one humble take from somebody that probably doesn't know enough about jazz to see the shortcomings. I like it. To each their own.
David
Personally, I really love Coleman Hawkins' version of Body and Soul. Where does he play the head straight? Actually I love Hawkins as much as I like Archie Shepp. Hawk was often one to avoid playing the Head-Solo-Head formula. Sonny Rollins in that school of improvisation. Jazz is a very broadly defined genre. There is a much bigger and just as beautiful world outside the world of "traditional jazz guitar" and you can hear that sensibility is many younger players, as uncomfortable as that may be Originally Posted by Daniel Kuryliak
Last edited by TH; 11-09-2013 at 10:47 AM.
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Mr.Daniel,
This is a beautifull version of Days & Wine & Roses played by Mr.Frisell.
It is like impression about that tune and the theme is recognised in 22 second.
If you listen it carefully you will notice how many times Bill Frisell play fragments of theme.
Ofcourse it is not a mainstream jazz but it is Bill Frisell..:-)
All The Best
kris
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In the Mancini original, which we'll assume is a starting point in any interpretation, there is plenty of melodic and embellishment of the harmony. And it doesn't have a swing feel anywhere in it. Might we say that the Henry Johnson version takes liberties in this respect right from the beginning?
We hear different potential in a piece. It's our responsibility to make something worthy. That's kinda the point.
David
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First off I'm biased. Frisell is the man in my book. The guy turns everything he touches into gold imho. Music is so subjective though. Everyone hears things differently, so if one likes it or even detests it, that is okay.
The thing is Bill will often play a melody very straight forward and people say he isn't Jazz. Then he re-harmonize a tune and plays around it rather than just walking someone through it and he still isn't considered Jazz.
I view Bill as a Jazz guitarist, but not in the traditional way. I've listened to so much of Bill's music that this doesn't even sound that far out to me. I think this is one of my favorite versions of the tune. You also have this lesson where he walks one through playing, The Days of Wine and Roses.
It's been posted before, but still a fun watch, especially if you haven't seen it. A lot to learn in this little clip. Starts off with a performance of the tune and then the lesson starts at 2:40.
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Man, that's just beautiful. Thanks. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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Beautiful stuff. Sco and Bill definitely had some of the same teachers/influences as mentioned earlier in this posting. I hear some of the same use of 2 or 3 note harmonies. Nice!!!
Originally Posted by Melodic Dreamer
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Kris, lets just say that I'm an old school geezer and leave it at that. I have played this particular tune for Originally Posted by kris
many years and I guess in my mind, I've become set on the way it should be played in a jazz repertoire.
As I mentioned in an earlier post..I am not knocking Bill Frisell for playing it in his style...but..that
being said..it doesn't have the structure that these old ears have been accustomed too. I am a Wes Montgomery/Kenny Burrell/Charlie Byrd fan, and I guess my old ears have been "accustomed to their way", (pun on a nice jazz tune from Broadway's " My Fair Lady; " Accustomed to her Face" )...of playing certain tunes.
Yes I noticed he does have "fragments" of the theme in his style of playing..but with all due respect to his playing ability and knowledge..I wouldn't listen to that rendition more than once.
It just doesn't do anything for me..but as they say :"YMMV : (your mileage may vary)..lets leave it at that.Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 11-10-2013 at 04:13 AM.
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Ok, I'm sensing a " Gunfight at the OK Corral" coming up. Look guys, I have my preferences in; Originally Posted by TruthHertz
1) the artists I listen to; 2) the way I interpret music that I like; 3) my kind of jazz interpretations and playing style; 4) the way I prefer the "standards" to be played in my mind's ear; and
4) execution style of the piece on the guitar.
Everybody is different. In jazz there probably is not right way or wrong way to approach on how you perform
a piece of music in a solo setting. If you have a singer, of course you need to stick to the theme and chordal
structure as well as the melodic line because the singer would be lost very quickly..(Ella Fitzgerald -the Queen
of Jazz would be one exception).
Duke Ellington once said "If it sounds good..it IS good"..lets leave it at that and agree to be different.Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 11-10-2013 at 04:25 AM.
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Hopefully no gunfight...Daniel I think you, as well as those who disagreed with you, have all qualified their comments well and made it clear they're just opinions...pretty good discussion, I'd say...getting at some big ideas.
If I had the ability and the time I'd transcribe Bill's whole version, then play it on piano. I'm guessing the Monkishness would be startling.
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Mr Daniel,
Even though we might all qualify as old geezers to a degree ( as an aside, are there any youngsters on this blog?)
I think melody is melody regardless (of age.
Now I am only now "getting into" Frisell and his "fragmented" way of playing so to speak.
I actually like his different style of playing but it is interesting that I latched onto Scofield as a fan decades before circling back to Frisell.
You may prefer Scofield's version simply because the whole melody is more or less stated as close to the original version as possible. I am told they have similar "college education" on the instrument.
You may have seen this before. It's quite tasty (I think).
Originally Posted by Daniel Kuryliak
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This is basically an acoustic rather mediocre recording of a live performance. The room acoustics are B-a-D!, interferes with the instruments..but yes, I can still decipher most of what he is playing. Originally Posted by West LA Jazz
I can barely hear the bass player and can't hear John's comping at all..and the bass player is
"wandering" IMO.
He's (John) missed a few notes in the original score at the beginning... but this is jazz after all..and as "youse youts" out there are telling me..anything goes,
so don't be a prude Dan....ok I'm listening..and so far.. not too shabby...I like his improv and he's cookin' at a faster tempo than I'm used to on this piece..but hey..that's jazz..no boundaries...right guys?
I'll give him a 7 out of 10 for originality though, although the tempo keeps changin'..and I'm getting older by the minute..ok..lost my train of thought...overall..out of 10, I'll have to give the combined effort about a 6....:-(
although John comes back to state the theme at the ending.....and doesn't leave me hanging.......what was that chord at the end? ..stop clapping audience...I can't hear a f%%king thing! LOL!
Ok, gunfight at high noon?...LOL!Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 11-10-2013 at 01:20 PM.
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The level of fidelity to a tune is something that I think about a lot. I do think of a lot of jazz sounds so completely disconnecting from the underlying tune that it sounds very generic; a re-harmonizing really makes the most sense if you can understand/still hear the original harmony, imho. Jazz players get so educated on our own musical language that we leave a lot of listeners bored, but otoh maybe the audience for any version of "The Days of Wine and Roses" is limited.
I heard Pearl Jam play a couple of weeks ago and great as the show was I felt afterwards that there was too much shredding going on. Play the song, do something interesting with a short solo, the bang on to the next song! I understand that playing and hearing the same tunes over and over can get tedious, but it works with bach and Mozart.
Having said all that I do like most of Bill F's playing and he is someone I listen to a lot.
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Better yes..but this is single note technique...still Wes' version is 10 out of 10 in my books. Originally Posted by PaulD
Ok shoot me..I'm old school.
I can follow his improv as he builds his phrasing on the original theme. I just wish he would take
a half rest between phrases and his phrases run into each other in one continuous string.
I can hear him comping on the bass solo. He comes in after the bass solo and gets back into the theme at
the ending.. 7 out of 10 .
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