Why are there no more famous jazz musicians?

[Average Joe]

Warning! generalizations ahead:

Is jazz and jazz musicians interested in a wider audience? It often doesn't seem so. It seems as if jazz as a genre have largely turned its back to the general public. the public have always wanted accessible, humable tunes. I'm not sure I agree with the above posters that claim the audiences aren't up to the language of jazz. People like good songs, and they don't mind if they are complex but they must be accessible.Glen Miller, Ellington, Kern, Gershwin etc provided that, and those tunes have since largely formed the standard repertoire of the genre. Later on a band like Steely Dan made wonderful pop within a jazz language. How many modern heads can you hum? How many would you want to? I am not suggesting that pop like sensibilities should be the be all and end all of all jazz musicians, but as jazz lovers we cant have it both ways: We can't both salute complexity and abstraction over accessability and at the same time complain that the general public want nothing of it. And i think it reflects back on the jazz community, players, critics and audience alike. Within the community there is very much a tendency to elevate chops, and to praise the beauty in complexity rather than simplicity. Nothing wrong with that. I love hearing a player go for broke or a composer going for the unusual note. But it wont break into the mainstream. And that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the mainstream either.

I love jazz, both as a listener and as a beginning player, but as far as wider recognition goes I think the jazz community is its own worst enemy

[Philco]

Because simplicity is the hardest to do.
Complexity is so freaking easy.

Nay saying the mainstream is easy.
Being different is easy.

Being original and simple is the hardest of the hard.

Much easier to hide behind a wall of complexity and protect yourself.
It provides a comfy delusion, protection and immunity.
Too cool for school.
"I will not play the game because I am above all that" mentality.

[Vladan]

I kind totaly agree with Average Joe and his observations. Ther's an almost schisofrenic dichotomy in it.
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Now, the rant:

Musicians are so concerned about prooving before fellow community, they fail to manage something much more important. Who cares if all harmonies are layed by rules or not. The important thing being: Does it sound good, at the moment, and even more important on a long term?
Give me something I can hum, or whistle.
Be Bop heads are rather hummable, I think (I'm not really a Jazzer, but quite often I catch my self humming head to Giant Steps, or other be bop tune). That's why they are still being played all arround the world.
Swing tunes were pop of it's time, that's why swing is still popular. Maybe not in original form, but whoever in modern times did a cover of a swing tune, or reminiscent, he scored a hit.
We're left with modern players. They're all killing. Amazing chops. Once there was one Steve Vai, now every other guitar playing kid is doing it. Well, almost. I'm deliberatly aavoiding any Jazz names.
So, you get to listen to ... Not exactly Vai, but good chops. Some tunes better than the others, but the very moment playback stop, you can not remember a single thing about them. Well, one has more guitar, the other has more sax, but what were they playing? Is there something to hum, or whistle? Let me think. Endless streight 8th note scales, of this and that mode, and aarpegios of this and that chord, over this and that quality harmony, or even worse, noodling and burning over 1-2 chords derivative grove, without any phrasing whatsoever, folowed by some 16ths, and slury sound effect trick at the end. Sorry, not interested. Yes, play it in an applied situation, elevator, or restaurant, but don't call me to a gig, don't ask me to wave my hands and burn my matches and lighter.
Of course, there are plethora of good modern players. Above was about bad ones and why they are bad.

Now,

Endless streight 8th note scales, of this and that mode, and aarpegios of this and that chord, over this and that quaality harmony, or even worse, noodling and burning over 1-2 chords derivative grove, without any phrasing whatsoever, folowed by some 16ths, and slury sound effect trick at the end.

, (quoting my own self, isn't it cute)...
It does not have to be bad at all, if I get convinced it was done on pourpose, to provoke exactly the reaction it provoked. But, you have to be real master for that thing. It's not enough to be Vai. You have to have a Zapa behind you (or in front), and the rest of the crew, all of them fully aware of the thing they are doing. Very, very hard to achieve, but not impossible. Otherwise, all that effort sums to bunch of non wrong notes, played in a row, at more less fast tempo.

[ecj]

I don't know anyone between the ages of 20 and 40 who doesn't know who Michael Buble or Dianna Krall are. Same is true for Sinatra, Crosby, Fitzgerald, Holiday. Almost everyone I know has one or two old jazz cuts on their iPod, and usually some kind of Buble cover like "Moondance", as well.

The popular jazz artists were always the singers.

[ColinO]

"Why are there no more famous jazz musicians? "

Easy - because as soon as they become famous, the jazz crowd says they're not jazz.

[danihrabin]

easy - because as soon as they become famous, the jazz crowd says they're not jazz.

so true!

[ColinO]

I don't know anyone between the ages of 20 and 40 who doesn't know who Michael Buble or Dianna Krall are. Same is true for Sinatra, Crosby, Fitzgerald, Holiday. Almost everyone I know has one or two old jazz cuts on their iPod, and usually some kind of Buble cover like "Moondance", as well.

The popular jazz artists were always the singers.

Let me add Amy Winehouse to the list of recent jazz artists who are famous.

[eddy b.]

I believe we have to realize that the sheer number of people alive today (close to 8 billion) makes it so that if .01 percent of the population digs you then you are more "famous" than the most famous of people from 50 to 100 years ago. Secondly during the big band years,jazz's most popular era, there are only five leaders names that have survived time to still be "known" in the most peripheral of ways.Big bands found popularity in creating music for dancing and had singers and singable tunes.Jazz as we know it today has released itself from commercial considerations and is art music for the sake of art music. Jazz was mainstream for a minute but with as with all music as soon as you stop dancing to it and tell ( or demand) people to "listen" that music changes into "art". Remember a Gigue was a dance so was a Gavotte, and a Sarabande. When the dance dies so does a part of the inspiration for that Music. As a brilliant man told me once "there is no such thing as a career in jazz..there are only addictions to jazz in varying degrees". I play Jazz for tourists 4 days a week, and all I can say is I live for the gigs(about four a year) where I can play my Art Music. Figure out a way for the kids to dance to Metatonal,Atonal Free Freak Out Jazz and you will have made a miracle happen. It truly is about making the people dance in order for it to be popular music.

[henryrobinett]

Amy Winehouse jazz? Really?? Is she considered jazz? I thought she was r&b.

My boys - one with his wife and the other his serious girlfriend, are asked, kind of as test for entering the family fold, if they can name at least five jazz musicians. On the first occasionally, they both failed miserably. Lol. My boys asked, "Can you name AT LEAST ONE??" Of course they were trying to get them to say me, at the very least. After awhile, as they know the test is coming, they learn Miles Davis, Coltrane, me (lol!), etc.

I'm encouraging my older son to divorce. It's afraid it's just not going to work out.

[ColinO]

Amy Winehouse jazz? Really?? Is she considered jazz? I thought she was r&b.

Tony Bennett said once that she was the best singer he had ever worked with(and he's worked with some pretty fine singers. I'm pretty sure she did a couple of jazz albums. Here is a sample.

[henryrobinett]

I'll check it out, but just because Bennett said she was the best singer he's worked with doesn't mean she was a JAZZ singer. Did he say she was the best JAZZ SINGER? Big difference. And being able to sing jazz tunes doesn't make you a jazz singer. That depends upon your work. What is it you DO? How does the world know you? The world knew her as an English r&b style singer. You don't think of her and think jazz, whether she could sing it or not.

[ecj]

Tony Bennett said once that she was the best singer he had ever worked with(and he's worked with some pretty fine singers. I'm pretty sure she did a couple of jazz albums. Here is a sample.

Really interesting hearing that. I'd never heard Winehouse do anything in a jazz context. All of the hits that I heard from her were definitely more on the Motown end of the spectrum.

She certainly had the pipes and the skill.

[henryrobinett]

Hey, but that was real nice.

[ColinO]

I take your point henry. He said she was a "magnificent jazz singer"...and a "great improviser". They won a grammy together for Body and Soul. I'm not trying to sell Amy Winehouse but Tony has to have some cred.

[teok]

For the same reason there aren't any new silent film stars.

[ecj]

For the same reason there aren't any new silent film stars.

Au contraire...

[henryrobinett]

I take your point henry. He said she was a "magnificent jazz singer"...and a "great improviser". They won a grammy together for Body and Soul. I'm not trying to sell Amy Winehouse but Tony has to have some cred.

Mr Bennett has total cred! I don't know the quote you referred to. Previously you just said he said she was a great SINGER, not jazz singer. Now you're changing it, presumably to make it more accurate. All I'm saying is there are a lot of people who can sing jazz, or who were trained in opera, or ballet. But unless they DO THAT FOR A LIVING we can't really say they are X. She could have been a great sudoku player! But you know no one knows her as that. If she was a great jazz singer, even if she did the odd recording, even with Tony Bennett, that does nothing for jazz, unless she really, really did it.

K.D. Lang did some jazz stuff too. But I don't know that I'd categorize her as a jazz singer. I guess the thing would be what album bin would we find them in? What category? If I were looking for a Winehouse Cd would I go to the jazz category? Where would I find her or K.D. Lang, Anita Baker, Rod Stewart (sorry), or even Chaka Khan, who is a great jazz singer?

[Vladan]

Yes, cool, throw out of your camp anything remotely popular, then whine about not having the audience. Jazz community should try to gain on those albums, not to dismiss them. Believe it, or not, for people outside, jazz iz just another, not very popular genre. Nobody think of it as of some kind of fine mindfull art and delicate craft.

[Patrick2]

I take your point henry. He said she was a "magnificent jazz singer"...and a "great improviser". They won a grammy together for Body and Soul. I'm not trying to sell Amy Winehouse but Tony has to have some cred.

Colin . . . if you really think that Tony has credibility when he speaks, then I would assume you haven't heard many of his interviews or outrageous comments/statements. Tony was once credited by Sinatra as being "the best saloon singer he ever heard". I'd not disagree with that. He's truly a gifted and skilled singer . . knows how to perform and deliver a song. But, he's now reached one of those points in life where he has gotten so much critical acclaim and praise . . not only for his ability to sing and perform . . but also for coming back from the dead (figuratively of course) after he kicked heroin . . that he thinks he can say just about anything he wants to and it will be taken as gospel.

Amy was an amazing singer. But for Tony to say she was the best he's ever sung with is a real stretech . . . given who he's sung with over the past half century or so. I'll just name one in particular . . Celine Dione. Amy was great . . . but she couldn't touch Celine. But, then again . . . who can . . . other than Barbara . . and Tony has sung with her too!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

My wife's parents are from a tiny African country called Mauritius.

Once she met a drug rep who said to her, "I heard your are Mauritian."

"Well, my parents are from Mauritius. I was born in London."

"But you speak Creole?"

"No."

"Ah, then you are not Mauritian."

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When is a singer a jazz singer? Can they improvise scat? No? Ah, then they are not a jazz singer.

[ColinO]

I'm not a big Amy Winehouse fan. The conversation appeared to be on an "are there any famous jazz musicians" bent. Amy is famous and is a jazz musician. I suppose that what made her famous was R&B although, if you listen to her break out album "Frank"(named after Frank Sinatra) there is a TON of jazz influence in the album and a couple of tunes that were more jazz than anything else. The fact that she started out performing in jazz ensembles I suppose is beside the point as well.

If jazz players don't want her to be a jazz musician, then I guess she is not and the R&B crowd will love to claim her as their own. I think that might support my previous point when I said that "as soon as they become famous, the jazz crowd says they're not jazz."

By the logic I'm seeing, I guess George Benson and Herbie Hancock weren't jazz musicians either.

[henryrobinett]

Don't try to make me the spokes person for jazz musicians. I don't know anything about Amy Winehouse. Not really. I've heard a couple of her tunes. If you said, "Yes she most certainly is a jazz musician. All of her CDs, (or any number of them) are jazz albums!" I'd have nothing to say. I've just heard a few of her tracks, and when she died I didn't hear any of her many fans say anything about her being a jazz singer. So it surprised me to hear you say that. That's all.

[henryrobinett]

By the logic I'm seeing, I guess George Benson and Herbie Hancock weren't jazz musicians either.

Wow. You're missing something really fundamental to say that. Herbie and Benson cut their eye teeth on jazz. Herbie has always played jazz in one form or another. They both played with Miles, Herbie for a very extended period. George always loved commercial music and loved singing and also always played jazz. They are both jazz instrumentalists. They were known as jazz musicians. If you went to find their recordings you'd have to look in the jazz category.

[Patrick2]

I'm not a big Amy Winehouse fan. The conversation appeared to be on an "are there any famous jazz musicians" bent. Amy is famous and is a jazz musician. I suppose that what made her famous was R&B although, if you listen to her break out album "Frank"(named after Frank Sinatra) there is a TON of jazz influence in the album and a couple of tunes that were more jazz than anything else. The fact that she started out performing in jazz ensembles I suppose is beside the point as well.

If jazz players don't want her to be a jazz musician, then I guess she is not and the R&B crowd will love to claim her as their own. I think that might support my previous point when I said that "as soon as they become famous, the jazz crowd says they're not jazz."

By the logic I'm seeing, I guess George Benson and Herbie Hancock weren't jazz musicians either.

Well Rod Stewart did a couple of albums of jazz standards too. While Rod's voice was certainly not well suited for that genre, the final product was pretty damned good, as a whole. Is Rod a jazz singer? What is a jazz singer anyway? It's not just someone who can sing jazz standards well. I would imagine that David Lee Roth can sing jazz tunes in a jazzy style. (I almost slipped and said that Mick Jagger could as well . . but, that would be a real stretch of the imagination.)

Mel Torme, Ella, Sassy, O'Day, Al Jarreau, Dianna Krall, Bobby Mcferrin, Dianna Reeves, Lena Horne, Carmen McRae, Billy Ekstein, Joe Williams, Johnny Hartman, etc.. Those were/are jazz singers. Phrasing, creative interplay with the band. Sinatra was great for that.

I guess it's somewhat similar to trying to define someone like Lee Ritenour as a jazz guitarist. Lee is a great guitarist who can and sometimes does play great jazz. But, I'd be hard perssed to define him as a jazz guitarist overall. Similarly with the myriad great singers out there today who can more than likely sing some jazz tunes in a jazz fashion pretty well. I think that may be the summation of where Amy Winehouse's jazz credibility would have fit in.

[Vladan]

Henry, I think you're missing the point. That's, if you'd your son remain married, tell him and to his wife, "after all, Amy was a Jazz singer, she started as one, only later she turned to commercial crap", something on those lines. Might be easier for her to think of Amy than about you.