The Charlie Christian Method

**christianm77** · 03-23-2019, 06:10 AM

Yeah, they might go back to Chuck Berry but not Charlie....

So imagine my surprise when I learned all these early rockers had been inspired by him.

**oldane** · 03-23-2019, 06:38 AM

Actually, I think those old R&R guitarists got their inspiration from multiple sources, not just guitarists. For example, Chuck Berry's solo on "Johnny B. Goode" has always striken me as something Lester Young could have played in 1943 - especially the rhythmics twists of it and the staying on one note which is played with varying accents/fingerings.

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**christianm77** · 03-23-2019, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

Actually, I think those old R&R guitarists got their inspiration from multiple sources, not just guitarists. For example, Chuck Berry's solo on "Johnny B. Goode" has always striken me as something Lester Young could have played in 1943 - especially the rhythmics twists of it and the staying on one note which is played with varying accents/fingerings.

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That had occurred to me.

Didn’t know who Lester young was back then.

**diminished1944** · 03-23-2019, 06:46 AM

What! Are you really saying that if you were to play a Goodman track to a rock guitar fan/player, and then, say, "Swing to Bop" from the Minton Sessions, that any rock player would not immediately jump on the Minton track has being of A LOT more interest to them?
The SOUND! The ATTACK. The "joie de vivre" of the Minton recordings are so much more to modern rock tastes than the safe, bouncy Goodman recordings.

**TOMMO** · 03-23-2019, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

Actually, I think those old R&R guitarists got their inspiration from multiple sources, not just guitarists. For example, Chuck Berry's solo on "Johnny B. Goode" has always striken me as something Lester Young could have played in 1943 - especially the rhythmics twists of it and the staying on one note which is played with varying accents/fingerings.

There's a reason why quite a few of those were in flat keys: Louis Jordan....

**princeplanet** · 03-23-2019, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by diminished1944

What! Are you really saying that if you were to play a Goodman track to a rock guitar fan/player, and then, say, "Swing to Bop" from the Minton Sessions, that any rock player would not immediately jump on the Minton track has being of A LOT more interest to them?
The SOUND! The ATTACK. The "joie de vivre" of the Minton recordings are so much more to modern rock tastes than the safe, bouncy Goodman recordings.

Absolutely agree. I hunted CC recordings when young because I read about how amazing he was. I found a bunch of the Goodman recordings and .... "meh"... Many years later stumbled across the Minton's date and ...
yeah!" ...

**grahambop** · 03-23-2019, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by diminished1944

What! Are you really saying that if you were to play a Goodman track to a rock guitar fan/player, and then, say, "Swing to Bop" from the Minton Sessions, that any rock player would not immediately jump on the Minton track has being of A LOT more interest to them?
The SOUND! The ATTACK. The "joie de vivre" of the Minton recordings are so much more to modern rock tastes than the safe, bouncy Goodman recordings.

Also the Minton tracks are a live jam session where CC can really stretch out and you can sense the excitement, it makes a big difference. Swing to Bop is one of my favourite tracks of all time.

**MarkRhodes** · 03-23-2019, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by sgosnell

I know all that, but I'd bet the rent money that no one else who ever attended my high school does.

Even if true, is that relevant?

The influence of musicians is primarily on other musicians. Sometimes it is direct---as in player B cops a lick from player A---and other times it is indirect, as in C cops a lick from B who copped it from Charlie Christian...

**TOMMO** · 03-23-2019, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

other times it is indirect, as in C cops a lick from B who copped it from Charlie Christian...

Like Angus Young copping Chuck Berry who took it from Carl Hogan who took it from Charlie Christian....

**MarkRhodes** · 03-23-2019, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by diminished1944

What! Are you really saying that if you were to play a Goodman track to a rock guitar fan/player, and then, say, "Swing to Bop" from the Minton Sessions, that any rock player would not immediately jump on the Minton track has being of A LOT more interest to them?
The SOUND! The ATTACK. The "joie de vivre" of the Minton recordings are so much more to modern rock tastes than the safe, bouncy Goodman recordings.

All I can say is that when I first heard Charlie Christian, it was the Goodman recordings, and they knocked me out. (I grew up playing rock and blues guitar.) It was the Goodman recordings that T-Bone Walker and BB King first heard, that Duke Robillard first heard, that a few generations of guitar players first heard.

I don't think the Minton's recordings were widely available before the mid '70s. (Though the sessions were from 1941.)

Here's a short clip of Brian Setzer playing one of Charlie's guitars. Setzer---who was very popular in the late '70s among rock guitar players--was known to have fused rockabilly, country, and swing guitar. He knew his Charlie Christian licks.

**Phil59** · 03-23-2019, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

All I can say is that when I first heard Charlie Christian, it was the Goodman recordings, and they knocked me out. (I grew up playing rock and blues guitar.) It was the Goodman recordings that T-Bone Walker and BB King first heard, that Duke Robillard first heard, that a few generations of guitar players first heard.

This is correct. Furthermore, T-Bone Walker and Charlie Christian knew each other and took lessons from the same teacher.

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I don't think the Minton's recordings were widely available before the mid '70s. (Though the sessions were from 1941.)

I think this is true.

**diminished1944** · 03-23-2019, 11:00 AM

The Minton Sessions were first released in the 1940s!
BUT! BUT! BUT! As I have said, the Goodman recordings would - to say the least - have caught the ears of guitarists in the late 30s/early 40s. However, the harder edged sound, and extended soloing on the Minton Sessions is where we can hear Charlie at his majestic best.
AND if you don't agree with that, you are beyond redemption.

**christianm77** · 03-23-2019, 11:31 AM

Swing to bop is possibly my favourite guitar playing.

I’m interested to know how much direct influence he had on the later rock players. I honestly don’t know. I don’t hear Jeff Back talking about him, or Page, but perhaps I am wrong. They were into the rockabilly stuff that drew direct influence though.

Obviously for anyone picking up in the 40s he put that instrument on the map.

**diminished1944** · 03-23-2019, 11:42 AM

Well, Beck talks about Cliff Gallup (Gene Vincents jazz inspired guitarist) and Cliff talks about Charlie.
Of course, that "once" removed situation can be used with B B King. For example, Eric Clapton raves about B B King, and B B raves about Charlie.
And, of course, we can draw a connection line back from any modern country player. For example, Brent Mason is maybe the greatest modern country player and he cites Charlie as an influence.

**christianm77** · 03-23-2019, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by diminished1944

Well, Beck talks about Cliff Gallup (Gene Vincents jazz inspired guitarist) and Cliff talks about Charlie.
Of course, that "once" removed situation can be used with B B King. For example, Eric Clapton raves about B B King, and B B raves about Charlie.
And, of course, we can draw a connection line back from any modern country player. For example, Brent Mason is maybe the greatest modern country player and he cites Charlie as an influence.

Sure, I feel that it was an influence of an influence to some extent.

But to simply describe Charlie Christian as a jazz guitarist I think is to miss his widespread influence on all areas of music. Even Stravinsky was a fan!

**TOMMO** · 03-23-2019, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

But to simply describe Charlie Christian as a jazz guitarist I think is to miss his widespread influence on all areas of music.

Yes! T.Bone Walker was black blues and didn't make it into the white mainstream. Charlie Christian played with a white (make that mixed to some extent) swing band that had a huge white audience and he was a sensation playing electric guitar single note style so how could he not influence guitar players of all styles?.

I remember Dickie Betts saying in an interview that he was heavily influenced by Django Reinhard and Charlie Christian for example....

**MarkRhodes** · 03-23-2019, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Phil59

This is correct. Furthermore, T-Bone Walker and Charlie Christian knew each other and took lessons from the same teacher.

This book compares the two greats:
https://www.amazon.com/Trading-Licks...ustrec_signin&

I haven't read that book but I've read another one by the same author and it's good.

https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Chord-...sr=1-1-catcorr

**diminished1944** · 03-27-2019, 10:59 AM

I love this Charlie Byrd tribute to Charlie C. It's a pity Charlie Byrd didn't play more of this single line stuff. See clip below. Charlie's solo starts just after 30secs