Howard Roberts picking

**docbop** · 08-11-2012, 01:23 PM

I just stumbled across this video on YouTube of HR jamming at GIT from looks it was about early-mid 80's. What is great is you can see HR's unique picking technique and how relaxed it is. At about 6:59 in the video and on the outro you get good shots of HR picking. Can see how he's so relaxed he even raises his thumb from the pick between phrases.

HR's picking was something unique I believe he called "scalpel" picking and the main movement is only his thumb and index finger, his wrist doesn't really move till crossing strings or picking intervals. It really is a minimal movement picking if you can get the hang of it. I went to GIT in 1980 and it was still in the curriculum, but was more as "give it a try" not "do it this way". From what said around GIT back then was HR in beginning tried to get all students to use scalpel picking, but too many just couldn't do it so it became something to try out. Later it disappeared from GIT curriculum completely like a lot of the great HR teaching methods.

**fep** · 08-11-2012, 04:11 PM

Cool, I've always wanted to try this picking technique. I just had a hard time understanding it from a written page.

I've also heard it referred to as circular picking.

Cool my buddy is playing bass... well more like my instructor.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-11-2012, 05:26 PM

I'd heard of "circular picking" too but wasn't sure how to develop it.

**JakeAcci** · 08-11-2012, 06:23 PM

Sorry to go all RichB, but picking grip aside...do you guys actually like the playing in that clip?

I've heard some Howard Roberts before and I really don't "get it." The time, phrasing, note choices, thematic development...it's not just that it doesn't do anything for me, but to my ears it just sounds really undeveloped, not swinging, stiff, disconnected, sloppy. A good test is...I think if we heard a horn player or piano player playing the same lines with the same time and dynamics, well...

Like we've covered ad nauseum in other threads, I know these things are extremely subjective. Obviously this guy got on the GIT faculty for a reason, and people respect him, so maybe it's really just my modern proclivities or personal biases. But help me out, why does this guy get so much credit? If you like the clip, what is it that you like about it? Why would you want to emulate that kind of playing?

**musicjunkie** · 08-12-2012, 01:31 AM

^
Howard Roberts actually started GIT and gathered the original faculty...Don Mock, Ron Eschete, Joe Diorio...they all greatly respected HR as a player as did Barney Kessel who worked with him in the studios

**JakeAcci** · 08-12-2012, 01:33 AM

That's interesting, but I still don't get it!

**Flyin' Brian** · 08-12-2012, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by docbop

Can see how he's so relaxed he even raises his thumb from the pick between phrases.

This is kind of a dated fusion-y thing from the '80s, but you can see Ritenour playing some very difficult passages with the same relaxed picking hand.

**fep** · 08-12-2012, 08:47 AM

It doesn't look to me that Riteneour is using the circular or scapel technique that Howard used. In the fast passages his thumb and finger is locked and the motion is coming from the wrist. Like at 2:20.

In other places he's using more of a rock technique where the heal of his hand is low and he can mute the strings open strings that way.

**Flyin' Brian** · 08-12-2012, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by fep

It doesn't look to me that Riteneour is using the circular or scapel technique that Howard used. In the fast passages his thumb and finger is locked and the motion is coming from the wrist. Like at 2:20.

In other places he's using more of a rock technique where the heal of his hand is low and he can mute the strings open strings that way.

I guess I wasn't clear enough even though I quoted the specific sentence I was referring to. I was talking about being so relaxed that he actually releases his grip on the pick.

**fep** · 08-12-2012, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Sorry to go all RichB, but picking grip aside...do you guys actually like the playing in that clip?

I've heard some Howard Roberts before and I really don't "get it." The time, phrasing, note choices, thematic development...it's not just that it doesn't do anything for me, but to my ears it just sounds really undeveloped, not swinging, stiff, disconnected, sloppy. A good test is...I think if we heard a horn player or piano player playing the same lines with the same time and dynamics, well...

Like we've covered ad nauseum in other threads, I know these things are extremely subjective. Obviously this guy got on the GIT faculty for a reason, and people respect him, so maybe it's really just my modern proclivities or personal biases. But help me out, why does this guy get so much credit? If you like the clip, what is it that you like about it? Why would you want to emulate that kind of playing?

Well, he sure doesn't seem to be as popular as many of the other esteemed guitarists.

Maybe it's just getting use to his vibe. Growing up I had a period where 'H.R. is a Dirty Guitar Player' was one of my most played records. Maybe if you listen to that album a bunch of times? Maybe, maybe not.

Here's the only thing I could find from that album.

Then I got into his albums Antelope Freeway and Equinox Express Elevator which where quite different. He seemed very inventive in his playing to me.

Can't find anything from those albums. I had all of these on vinyl, I wonder if they're still available.

**Flyin' Brian** · 08-12-2012, 09:03 AM

There are many available on Amazon including a combination Freeway/Elevator

Amazon.com: howard roberts

**docbop** · 08-12-2012, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

This is kind of a dated fusion-y thing from the '80s, but you can see Ritenour playing some very difficult passages with the same relaxed picking hand.

Ritenour as kid studied with Howard Roberts.

**Flyin' Brian** · 08-12-2012, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by docbop

Ritenour as kid studied with Howard Roberts.

I have his Stolen Moments record and he plays a few HR licks on it here and there, so I always wondered.

**cisco kid** · 08-12-2012, 04:05 PM

I attended a Howard Roberts seminar in Laguna Beach, but he didn't mention his picking technique. The seminar was more on theory for guitar in mid '70s, I believe just before GIT.
I heard later by a well known studio bass player who knew everyone in Hollywood called for studio work in the 60s Roberts was ripped off by some of his GIT associates. The dispute went to court and Roberts went to the state of Washington to open a school there and unfortunately died of prostate cancer in the early 90's. A great loss to the music world.

**docbop** · 08-12-2012, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by cisco kid

I attended a Howard Roberts seminar in Laguna Beach, but he didn't mention his picking technique. The seminar was more on theory for guitar in mid '70s, I believe just before GIT.
I heard later by a well known studio bass player who knew everyone in Hollywood called for studio work in the 60s Roberts was ripped off by some of his GIT associates. The dispute went to court and Roberts went to the state of Washington to open a school there and unfortunately died of prostate cancer in the early 90's. A great loss to the music world.

I remember the old HR seminars he did pre-GIT I attended one in SF Valley back in mid-70's. I don't know the GIT story, I remember hearing about some publishing issues over some materials which happens a lot in school environments. The last time I talked to HR was about a year before he transitioned and it was at GIT he had come to town to hang out and talk to students.

**cisco kid** · 08-12-2012, 05:18 PM

I did buy a couple or so books by HR ( have one for sure). Playback I think the company was. But I read from an email from this studio bass player that it was an associate or more from GIT that HR had a serious business dispute which was some how resolve. HR parted ways with them even though he was a major cofounder of GIT. This is all rumor to me. But if one was very serious about guitar playing that was/is one of the places to go.
As far as studio guitar calls - lot's of luck. Tommy Tedesco told some of the students there "You have as much of a chance in getting in the studio playing door as a kid in a kindergarten sandbox getting into the major league baseball playing". Much harder now I hear.
I do have two HR vinyl albums which he told us in the seminar class he never made a nickel off any of his albums. Plus some jazz compilation albums where he plays on some tracks.
My guitar teacher (older man left-handed as myself) approached HR at a club or restaurant in Hollywood and HR basically out loud told my instructor when my teacher walked towards HR told him to "Get Lost".
I guess HR didn't want to be bothered. But my instructor thought HR was a genius of a guitarist.
My instructor got along better with Tal Farlow at club table but Farlow seem sort of on another cloud when they talked...sort of spacey like.

**docbop** · 08-12-2012, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by cisco kid

I did buy a couple or so books by HR ( have one for sure). Playback I think the company was. But I read from an email from this studio bass player that it was an associate or more from GIT that HR had a serious business dispute which was some how resolve. HR parted ways with them even though he was a major cofounder of GIT. This is all rumor to me. But if one was very serious about guitar playing that was/is one of the places to go.
As far as studio guitar calls - lot's of luck. Tommy Tedesco told some of the students there "You have as much of a chance in getting in the studio playing door as a kid in a kindergarten sandbox getting into the major league baseball playing". Much harder now I hear.
I do have two HR vinyl albums which he told us in the seminar class he never made a nickel off any of his albums. Plus some jazz compilation albums where he plays on some tracks.
My guitar teacher (older man left-handed as myself) approached HR at a club or restaurant in Hollywood and HR basically out loud told my instructor when my teacher walked towards HR told him to "Get Lost".
I guess HR didn't want to be bothered. But my instructor thought HR was a genius of a guitarist.
My instructor got along better with Tal Farlow at club table but Farlow seem sort of on another cloud when they talked...sort of spacey like.

Doesn't sound like the HR I ever saw and between the music school I worked at and GIT I was around Tedesco many times and he was always encouraging to students and took students to sessions with him all the time. I still have fond memories of the time I got to got with him. Now they are human and I know some questions that would brother HR, but even those he would try to nicely tell you to stop whining. Now you want one of the most encouraging people at GIT and at same time brutally honest in giving his opinion is Scott Henderson. I've seen him rip arrogant students a new asshole, but most the time the student would come back because they knew what Scott told them was right. At same time seen Scott have practically a beginner sit and play a blues with him and he would take time to give them things to work on and encourage them to come back and jam again.

As for studio work I don't think its any harder to break into today than in past the problem now is there isn't a lot of studio work anymore. You still have to have your act together, make contacts, and only as good as your last session.

**hot ford coupe** · 08-12-2012, 10:36 PM

I had the good fortune to see HR play outside a music store when I lived in Hawaii. I was maybe 6 feet away from him so I could see everything he was doing. He was demonstrating the Epi Joe Pass model which was relatively inexpensive at the time. He played the daylights out of it and sounded great. The thing that inpressed me most about his playing was how relaxed he was while playing. It was like he was born with that guitar in his lap. He was not flinging the guitar around or making those anguished grimaces while sweating like a pig like you see in some of the guitar ads.

**AleikhBaba** · 08-13-2012, 08:25 AM

I think the topic was regarding Howard Roberts' picking technique.... So right "circular" picking is pretty much one of the angles that has been used probably by more guitar players than are credited. It relies on economy of motion and as such is frequently deployed in conjunction with "economy picking". Ritchie Blackmore, Yngwie Malmsteen, Frank Gambale, Andreas Oberg, Kenny Burrell, Allan Holdsworth, Scofield, Eric Johnson have all exhibited using circular picking to some degree or the other and to MUSICAL effect.

Even hardcore alternate pickers change the bend in their primary thumb joint to accommodate ease of picking when playing on the lower registers (the heavier strings) as opposed to the lighter higher register. Circle picking acknowledges this phenomenon commonly exhibited and builds on it further.

Look at the end of the day, you'd be dead trying to play string skipped passages (doesn't even have to be the cliched shred/progressive lines, can be simpler more melodic devices) using circular picking, or lines which require strict strong accenting. Vice-versa, good luck playing modern neoclassical/fusion lines or emulating a more horn-like tone with old school alternate picking from the wrist.

A very good benchmark for your picking technique ought to be the Bach partitas. When I play em I try and focus on getting exactly the kind of tone and color I wish to generate and then deploy appropriate right hand techniques. It's fun cos you really get appreciate the pros and cons of alternate vs. economy vs. circular. vs. wrist vs. hybrid picking, and how each technique can be stylized personally to suit ones own playing as well as to serve the composition.

**Sandor** · 08-13-2012, 11:10 AM

this guy has lots of videos showing scalpel picking.

At about the 6 min mark you get a good view of it.

heres a different angle

I don't know if that's exactly how howard did it, but thought it might be useful to anyone trying to learn it

**wizard3739** · 08-14-2012, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by cisco kid

I did buy a couple or so books by HR ( have one for sure). Playback I think the company was. But I read from an email from this studio bass player that it was an associate or more from GIT that HR had a serious business dispute which was some how resolve. HR parted ways with them even though he was a major cofounder of GIT. This is all rumor to me. But if one was very serious about guitar playing that was/is one of the places to go.
As far as studio guitar calls - lot's of luck. Tommy Tedesco told some of the students there "You have as much of a chance in getting in the studio playing door as a kid in a kindergarten sandbox getting into the major league baseball playing". Much harder now I hear.
I do have two HR vinyl albums which he told us in the seminar class he never made a nickel off any of his albums. Plus some jazz compilation albums where he plays on some tracks.
My guitar teacher (older man left-handed as myself) approached HR at a club or restaurant in Hollywood and HR basically out loud told my instructor when my teacher walked towards HR told him to "Get Lost".
I guess HR didn't want to be bothered. But my instructor thought HR was a genius of a guitarist.
My instructor got along better with Tal Farlow at club table but Farlow seem sort of on another cloud when they talked...sort of spacey like.

Bah!! I don't believe there is ANY truth in your "hearsay" comments about Howard Roberts. Having studied with him and been around him for several years, I never saw or heard him do ANYTHING unkind or even get angry with anyone.

wiz

**smp** · 08-14-2012, 03:42 AM

I seem to remember a special pick that came out in the 80's called the Diamond Pick (i think). It was a normal pick with a cylindrical diamond on the picking tip. The idea was to train you to pick with the last few millimetres of the pick and not to dig in too deep.

I wonder was that design something to do with the scalpel picking?

If you look inside this book there's a page about plectrums and picking.

**Flat** · 08-14-2012, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by wizard3739

Bah!! I don't believe there is ANY truth in your "hearsay" comments about Howard Roberts. Having studied with him and been around him for several years, I never saw or heard him do ANYTHING unkind or even get angry with anyone.

wiz

Wiz had the pleasure of getting to know Howard better than I did. But I'll also say that I had many occasion to see Howard interact with students, faculty, administrators during the 18 months I studied and played and hung around GIT and never ever once did I hear him say a harsh word to anyone. And I heard students ask him really lame, pointless, rambling questions. Things that would try any teacher's patience.

But I never heard an insult from Howard. Always an open-minded, positive response.

Anyone can have a bad day. And a few people can sometimes deserve to be told to get lost. I'm not saying it didn't happen. But I will say without hesitation that my impression was that HR was an uncommonly gentle, kind, caring, and extremely intelligent man. He deserves better than to be slagged like that by second-hand hearsay. He really does.

If you had known him, I bet you would have really liked the guy.