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I like listening to recordings of Grant Green. He certainly recorded a lot. Always a nice sound, nice notes. Sometimes I think I can approach his level of musicianship, on a good day.
But whenever I jam with some of our local hot-s__t horn players, at some point they invariably count off tunes way faster than I can execute a solo, and certainly faster than anything I have ever heard Green play on record. Certainly a typical Miles or Coltrane album contains many solos at a quicker tempo than most anything you hear from this guitarist.
GG worked with the best of his era. Did he play way-uptempo stuff at all, or did he just sit those songs out?
Thanks for a response from those who know this artist better than I do.
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06-04-2012 12:29 PM
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More up than this?
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I'm going through the "Grant Green" vaults in my mind and I'm coming up with only a few truly "up" recordings he made...mid tempo was Grant's wheelhouse.
He didn't sit out the fast stuff though...in his biography, they talk to George Benson, who got to play with Grant when he was young...he talks about how they'd call tunes, and George would call some fast tune because he knew he could tear it up and try and show Grant up...and then Grant would count off the next tune in that midtempo groove, and just blow Benson away...George said Grant "owned" that mid tempo...nobody could touch him.
I don't know if I'd go that far, but it does seem that I can listen to a whole record of mid tempo tunes from Grant and never get bored...not something I can say about every player, for sure...
Edit: That was one I thought of Brian...actually, there's a couple of tracks I'd call "up" on the Sonny Clark stuff..."Airegin" comes to mind too...Last edited by mr. beaumont; 06-04-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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Never heard that before, about Benson. that's amazing. I think the Big John Patton albums with Green on, are probably my favorite recordings of all time. Those bands were all about the heavy swing, nothing too quick....
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While some of what Grant recorded could be considered 'up-tempo' (Song Is You, Tune Up, Oleo, etc) they're not as bright as typical jam session versions of those tunes. And as far as jam sessions go, I'll go out on a limb and say it's easier for horn players to play bright tempo bebop vocabulary in keys they're comfortable in that it is for a guitarist of similar ability. But long, running eighth note lines isn't the only way to approach a tune. Check out Jim Hall with Sonny on a really bright Rhythm Changes tune.
I can't think of a particular recording to steer you to, but I've heard Peter Bernstein play some great up tempo jam session music using a LOT of quarter notes instead of eighths.
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Green had a very prolific recording career, and including his work as a sideman, he probably appears on close to 100 albums. Seems he could groove at any tempo.
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I have tons of GG. Totally a fan. He played "up" enough. He kind of added "space" like Miles when he did so though. Check out his Tune Up and Reaching Out for a couple of examples that come to mind.
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Mr. B.,in his biography, they talk to George Benson,
what book are you referring to?
Cheers,
H.
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oh, thanks, Mack.
I read a really well written review about that which made me choose not to read the book... I´ll dig up the link in a min...
Can anybody recommend reading it???
Cheers,
H.
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I've read it. I didn't hate it the way this guy does, but his points are valid.
Originally Posted by Helgo
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Just wanted to add what I posted on Fretterverse.com on Grant's biography.
Grant’s biography was not perfect , but hopefully a start for more to follow .Grant well deserved this book in spite of it’s flaws.
And the book is well worth reading. The problem was she was totally not versed in the subject and was totally dependant on others.
As for Wes , I truly love Wes playing. A pecial place in my music library. So beautiful! So swinging! How could one not acknowledge his genius, but there were strengths that Grant had that surpassed Wes and vive versa.
What made Grant unique and with " no peers "to quote drum legend Elvin Jones , was the following:
Grant had a hornlike , singing execution. never brittle, always full bodied in a way had no one had who precceded him, a few that have followed.
Grant had such an advanced conception of single lines with so much command of the melodic, harmonic, and post bop vocabulary that even with no piano, organ, other guitar or playing next to no chords himself, that his lines was so full with just bass and drums backing that any chords added would be too much.
A VERY HIGH LEVEL OF PLAYING!
Where others like Wes would rely on chord melodies, octaves, block chords for solos, Grant had such command of the single line, he didnt need chordal backing. Full, swinging, flowing!
The best example of this is his album “Standards”.
Grant also had a funky fludity with more varied rhythmic figures, sycopation, and space that he could run the risk of making the best of his comtemoraries sound stiff by comparison. This with his full bodied singing style.Just listen to “Brazil” off “the Latin Bit ” for example.
Then there is his versatility. (Spelling?)
Grant along with Wes, Kenny Burrell, and George Freeman was a hard bop pioneer, but even though Wes and Kenny had played with John Coltrane as Grant did, Grant went deeper and more naturally into the modal area.
Listen to "Matador" with McCoy Tyner, Elvin Jones, and Bob Cranshaw.
Grant also was a pioneer for more outside playing. For example, “Nomad “ off of "Idle Moments "or his Blue Note sessions with saxophonist George Braith. ( " Complete Blue Note Recordings of George Braith") Never heard Wes or Kenny play in these areas.
I know some of you guys are not fans of funk jazz, but with it’s best practioners it is a valid and fresh subgenre of jazz.
Grant nearly single handedly pioneered this area. Listen to ” Live at the Lighthouse”.Wes or Kenny could not have made this album. Not to take away from them, but it wasn’t in them. Very funky, high energy!
So not about note density or speed, that with practice, can be acquired with practice.
But to create pure melody with single line improv that still sounds fresh as time passes, that's genius!
Does this make him better than Wes or Kenny? NO, just easily their equals. When one is on that level , it’s just differences. The things that made these giants unique! These guys invented their own styles.
Then there are the rest of us.
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Littlegrant,
I wish your review on fretterverse was written more like your thoughtful response here.
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Well thank you, i think.
The review wasn't mine. i just posted a comment. reposted it here edited , not rushed like the first post.
i think so many players, miss a couple key points.
i think the only players most concerned with speed are guitar players.
it's just a tool in the box, not a means to an end.
The musicians that move me more than the others
include not only Grant, but Bill Evans, Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk, Dexter Gordon, Wayne Shorter,
They would not even be having this conversation.
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My mistake, i thought the review on fretterverse was yours.
Good, now i can say what i really think of it...
But nah, i'll be nice.
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Like your spirit my friend!
These comparisons are so totally against the whole spirit and premise of jazz.
Like those that thought Thelonious Monk to play like Oscar Peterson.
how totally insane!
it's like telling Freddie Green from Count Basie that he should play solos.
Guys like Grant, Monk, Miles ,Freddie Green were following their vision, not caring if they were conforming to the ideas of what is the right technical trend at the moment.
These guys transcended all that.
They were following their on vision,
which is what jazz is all about!
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And to answer you thoughtfree.
The best examples of Grant playing fast are "Back Talk " from Jimy Smith's " Movin On", some things on Grant's " Complete Quartets With Sonny Clark" and on Houston Person's " Real Thing" ( only on LP).
I think Grant like Miles Davis , Wayne Shorter, or Dexter Gordon took single lines to the next level and edited out anything not needed and were shooting for the creation of pure spontaneous melody.
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I'd like to weigh in on this. I bought the book and I don't know what else a non-jazz person, with a background as a reporter, and nothing but hearsay to go on, could have done with this book.
I stayed up every night reading a chapter until I was done ( I kind of miss it, now). Each chapter gave more information about Grant Green in the form of stories from interviewees.
Let me tell you, I have had many conversations with older folks and when it comes to pinning down history, it can be tough. One such conversation was about whether or not a spouse had been unfaithful - each swore their side was true. The woman said she had caught him red-handed, while her husband of 45 years said it never happened.
I have also witnessed denials of more serious events that the victims swore were true.
So getting back to the book, most if not all of the those interviewed were getting up there in years, and I gather by their conversations, had many old wounds from racism, social wrongdoing, and other nefarious activities. So my own personal experience with people tells me it would very difficult getting accurate, unbiased info. What other data could the author have used?
Also, if you were to have printed every story, the book would have been as big as War and Peace but you could not be sure what was actually true. So the author limited herself to just interviews and some commentary on them.
I am satisfied that I know more about Grant Green now, and I am comfortable with the sources that were believable, those that were not, and those with which you had to read in between the lines.
One last thing, in several reviews I have read, reviewers stated they were sick and tired of reading about the unfairness and the discrimination in the music industry. Having spent a lot of time in Northern California listening to radio shows,, I can understand their sentiment, but I can also see how it can ruin their enjoyment of the book so badly that they cannot appreciate what the book had to offer.
In the end, my inquiring mind was able to form what is probably a creditable opinion on Grant Green's morals, self-esteem, upbringing, attitude towards women and people in general, religious beliefs and convictions, and some of how he approached music. I even have a little insight on how his decisions affected his family, especially his children, and how it affected their personalities and interrelationships.
So I have a little on Grant Green, his legacy (both in music and with his family), and even a tidbit on the author so I can see her methodology and prejudices, which aids me in figuring out just how subjective is her information in the book.
That's my two cents. I had probably better get back to playing the guitar now.
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Sound like a book I should read.
I a little surprised no one mentioned Grant's work with Hank Mobley those were some cool records.
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