The Pat Metheny "Gush" Thread

**Vihar** · 08-05-2011, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

I mentioned this in another thread but before he joined up with Gary Burton, and while he was at Miami, Pat had a reputation of being a really great free player. His sense of structure, imagination and line was something that was solid without the benefit of a harmonic song form. He had a group Kaleidoscope that he played free jazz with, and he played a lot of out stuff with Jaco.
When you don't have song form to fall back and hang your cliches on, it can make you aware of just what you do have to work with. I wonder how this helped his sense of flow.
David

It would be great to hear some bootlegs from that era. I don't know how to imagine that setting, something like the Paul Bley album with him and Jaco, or like the tune "Forward March"? Or more like the Zero Tolerance album?

TH · 08-05-2011, 05:29 AM

http://mro.massey.ac.nz/bitstream/ha...pdf?sequence=1

Go ahead and gush but wipe up the mess afterwords.
David

**Double 07** · 08-05-2011, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

http://mro.massey.ac.nz/bitstream/ha...pdf?sequence=1

Go ahead and gush but wipe up the mess afterwords.
David

Lol funny.

Your thesis paper? Cool

**brwnhornet59** · 08-05-2011, 06:50 PM

This to shall pass!

**Double 07** · 08-08-2011, 03:07 AM

A seminar with Pat Metheny that would be absolutely outstanding. Have fun.

TH · 08-08-2011, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Double 07

Lol funny.

Your thesis paper? Cool

Not mine, I'm just sharing the information.

**Double 07** · 08-17-2011, 07:01 PM

Acoustic is making amps again looks like just bass amps right now. They should bring back the 134 head. That way Metheny could get his old sound back when he plays songs like "Phase Dance" or "San Lorenzo" or most of his PMG output. His Trio work is great, I'm hooked on this guys playing, but sometimes I do miss that "classic" Metheny sound. Bet they could sell quite a few to guys dabbling in jazz since it's what Pat used on all those records / performances.

**Jazz Gallery** · 09-02-2011, 01:48 PM

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**whatswisdom** · 09-02-2011, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Double 07

A seminar with Pat Metheny that would be absolutely outstanding. Have fun.

Anyone attend the summer workshop last week? It would be cool to hear about the happenings at that event. I'd love to have been able to afford the time & $$ to attend. Mick Goodrick, etc. Bet it was quite an experience...

**Jazz Maniac** · 09-09-2011, 03:22 PM

What is the last song Metheny plays in video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opv-q4IWpjw

**Flyin' Brian** · 09-09-2011, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Double 07

Acoustic is making amps again looks like just bass amps right now. They should bring back the 134 head. That way Metheny could get his old sound back when he plays songs like "Phase Dance" or "San Lorenzo" or most of his PMG output. His Trio work is great, I'm hooked on this guys playing, but sometimes I do miss that "classic" Metheny sound. Bet they could sell quite a few to guys dabbling in jazz since it's what Pat used on all those records / performances.

He has said pretty much that he dislikes that sound now because everybody has been using it. Also they use chorus and he never did and doesn't care for chorus at all.

Originally Posted by Jazz Maniac

What is the last song Metheny plays in video?

The First Circle

**brwnhornet59** · 09-12-2011, 04:04 PM

Great thoughts from a giant innovator.

**TrakaVobla** · 09-12-2011, 05:30 PM

Metheny`s tribute to Hendrix.

**brwnhornet59** · 09-12-2011, 05:44 PM

I never heard Third Stone From The Sun sound like that before.

**Double 07** · 09-13-2011, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

He has said pretty much that he dislikes that sound now because everybody has been using it. Also they use chorus and he never did and doesn't care for chorus at all.

HUH WHAAAAA? What Pat Metheny are you listening too? He uses chorus almost all the time on his guitar. What he has said is that he doesn't like typical chorus pedals that mix the chorused and direct signals together coming out of the same speaker. Instead he uses one speaker cabinet stage left that oscillates and another speaker cab stage right that oscillates the pitch and one speaker cabinet in the middle dry (no oscillation) and the sounds mix together out in the air to create the chorus effect, he likes that sound better than a typical chorus stompbox but it's still a chorus effect.

Anyway, according to every interview he did around the time he switched amps he never mentioned anything about not liking the sound anymore. In fact he said in the interviews he went searching for another amp that could get the SAME sound as the old Acoustics and that he found it when he played through the 2101. He said that the only reason he switched was because the Acoustic amp had serious "road rash" issues from the 30 years of hard touring. Stuff like the knobs falling off or being held on with bubble gum and stuff lol. Acoustic had stopped making amps in the late 70's early 80's so at the time he switched amps (around 1999 / 2000) he had no way of sourcing new Acoustic amps so he started using the 2101.

**Flyin' Brian** · 09-13-2011, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Double 07

HUH WHAAAAA? What Pat Metheny are you listening too? He uses chorus almost all the time on his guitar. What he has said is that he doesn't like typical chorus pedals that mix the chorused and direct signals together coming out of the same speaker. Instead he uses one speaker cabinet stage left that oscillates and another speaker cab stage right that oscillates the pitch and one speaker cabinet in the middle dry (no oscillation) and the sounds mix together out in the air to create the chorus effect, he likes that sound better than a typical chorus stompbox but it's still a chorus effect.

Anyway, according to every interview he did around the time he switched amps he never mentioned anything about not liking the sound anymore. In fact he said in the interviews he went searching for another amp that could get the SAME sound as the old Acoustics and that he found it when he played through the 2101. He said that the only reason he switched was because the Acoustic amp had serious "road rash" issues from the 30 years of hard touring. Stuff like the knobs falling off or being held on with bubble gum and stuff lol. Acoustic had stopped making amps in the late 70's early 80's so at the time he switched amps (around 1999 / 2000) he had no way of sourcing new Acoustic amps so he started using the 2101.

First of all I could do without the smarmy huh whaaaa who are you listening to? I assure that I'm listening to the same Metheny that you are, and in fact have had the opportunity to speak with him at seminars and after shows 3 times and we've discussed it.

Next of all I was thinking of this which is from his website. It's the same thing that you were talking about but what I was referring to were the highlighted phrases. Like I said, he NEVER uses chorus.

like the 134 always was, the output of the digitech is run into 2 lexicon prime-time digital delay lines, one on my left at 14 ms delay, one one my right at 26 ms delay. each delay has a very slight "pitch bend" controlled by the VCO (sine wave) inside the prime-time. this is what gives it the "chorused" thing that i guess i would have to say i was the first to use extensively in jazz and that seemed to have influenced alot of other guys to do the same. only thing, i HATE the way "chorus boxes" sound, my sound is mostly the "straight "134/digitech line which is behind me with NO PITCH BEND which gets blended IN THE AIR with the the two DISCRETE delay pitch bends (which are much softer than the "straight" amp volume) to get a bigger sound. i HATE when i hear the "pitch bend" and the straight mixed together and coming out of the same speaker. it drives me crazy. you can then imagine that it's hard for me in a studio. studios and records are STEREO and i have THREE discrete sources, "straight", delay left, and delay right. i don't feel like i've ever gotten it right on any record. i'm anxiously awaiting the coming days when we get to go back in and re-mix everything for everyone's home 6-track surround systems!!! i'll finally be able to get the guitar sound right!!!!!! (also, i forgot one thing, i always have a slight 450-500 ms delay mixed in right off the guitar too. if you hear it too much, it's too loud. it just lengthens the notes some.)

As a matter of fact he seems to have finally found the answer to his live sound:

**markf** · 09-14-2011, 06:14 PM

OK

I don't like Pat's playing very much. listen to the album Herbie Hancock's band with Jack DeJohnette, Michael Brecker, Dave Holland,

listen to the tune "chan's song" the beautiful playing of everyone except Pat.

the beatles tune someone posted here that he "improvised".... completely uninteresting to me. He plunked out bits of the melody with some basic chords, there are numerous people posting here who can do as well.

should mention I also don't get Bill Frizell. just doesn't do anything for me. I saw Bill live once, found it quite ordinary.

am I kicked out now?

you guys were raving about it. It was actually funny.

**brwnhornet59** · 09-14-2011, 06:19 PM

Wow! I guess you just summed up Pat with two tunes. Nicely done. But I forgive you.

**brwnhornet59** · 09-14-2011, 06:20 PM

Nice!

**markf** · 09-14-2011, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Wow! I guess you just summed up Pat with two tunes. Nicely done. But i forgive you.

thanks, I thought I might get kicked out of here for this heresy.

**markf** · 09-14-2011, 06:56 PM

you methany lovers will probably like this hour long, gushing, interview with Pat, and Linda Manzer who builds his guitars.
CBC radio a few weeks ago:

Inside the Music: Kindred Spirits
Victoria writer Rick Gibbs explores the 30 -year musical relationship between Canadian luthier Linda Manzer and guitar great Pat Metheny

CBC Radio 2 - Inside The Music

**brwnhornet59** · 09-14-2011, 07:07 PM

Thanx man, I am checking it out now!

**Flyin' Brian** · 09-14-2011, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by markf

thanks, I thought I might get kicked out of here for this heresy.

Naw, that's why there's vanilla chocolate and strawberry.

And a special sour pickle flavor for you.

**Double 07** · 09-15-2011, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

First of all I could do without the smarmy huh whaaaa who are you listening to? I assure that I'm listening to the same Metheny that you are, and in fact have had the opportunity to speak with him at seminars and after shows 3 times and we've discussed it.

Next of all I was thinking of this which is from his website. It's the same thing that you were talking about but what I was referring to were the highlighted phrases. Like I said, he NEVER uses chorus.

like the 134 always was, the output of the digitech is run into 2 lexicon prime-time digital delay lines, one on my left at 14 ms delay, one one my right at 26 ms delay. each delay has a very slight "pitch bend" controlled by the VCO (sine wave) inside the prime-time. this is what gives it the "chorused" thing that i guess i would have to say i was the first to use extensively in jazz and that seemed to have influenced alot of other guys to do the same. only thing, i HATE the way "chorus boxes" sound, my sound is mostly the "straight "134/digitech line which is behind me with NO PITCH BEND which gets blended IN THE AIR with the the two DISCRETE delay pitch bends (which are much softer than the "straight" amp volume) to get a bigger sound. i HATE when i hear the "pitch bend" and the straight mixed together and coming out of the same speaker. it drives me crazy. you can then imagine that it's hard for me in a studio. studios and records are STEREO and i have THREE discrete sources, "straight", delay left, and delay right. i don't feel like i've ever gotten it right on any record. i'm anxiously awaiting the coming days when we get to go back in and re-mix everything for everyone's home 6-track surround systems!!! i'll finally be able to get the guitar sound right!!!!!! (also, i forgot one thing, i always have a slight 450-500 ms delay mixed in right off the guitar too. if you hear it too much, it's too loud. it just lengthens the notes some.)

Smarmy huh whatever.

DUDE all I'm saying is that you're missing the point that he almost always uses chorus in varying degrees. The fact that he's found a rather novel way of generating the chorus sound doesn't mean it's not chorus. Sure he uses less chorus in the mix now, or even on his Geffen and Warner Bros output, than he did on the early ECM albums but it's still there all the time. Can't you hear it?

That whole Metheny quote you posted is him describing how he gets his chorus sound. That's why when you say he never uses chorus I go, huh whaaat? Sheesh, anyway I'm done with this.

I love Pat's playing on this Jack DeJohnette tune, his playing really fits the tune IMO. What can I say? I really love Pat's playing, his tone, his phrasing, creativity, songwriting, imagination. The fact that he's been sharing so much about his style recently via the songbooks, transcriptions of his solos, tab books etc.