Richie Kotzen (rock guy) playing Giant Steps

[charlieparker]

As aside on that note it's interesting listening to this

Damn, that was clean! I can't think of another player whose intonation is as good as Yngwie's when doing bends and whammy bar stuff.

[lammie200]

Interesting way this thread is developing. My 2 cents:

Kotzen appears to be “warming up.” I think he even says so. I don’t know if I would label it more rock and less jazz, but he isn’t really working out the dynamics of what he is playing IMHO. That’s not a rip on what he is doing but it all looks more like exercising to me than song contributing.

I think Carlton can make the pop circuit because he still retains a bit of the blues with his approach. I don’t think Holdsworth was ever interested in that approach so he went out to his island and stayed there. Nothing wrong with either approach.

I saw Holdsworth a couple of times as well. Once when I was in my twenties I saw him at a fairly small venue of a few hundred. I noticed two cute girls standing at a side and went over to chat them up. I had the preconceived notion that they must have gone to the show to meet guys because (like ever other guitarist show) the audience was mostly male. I was dead wrong. They knew more about Holdsworth’s work and career than I did. I was impressed with them. Neither one was impressed with me from what I recall.

[Hep To The Jive]

Interesting way this thread is developing. My 2 cents:

Kotzen appears to be “warming up.” I think he even says so. I don’t know if I would label it more rock and less jazz, but he isn’t really working out the dynamics of what he is playing IMHO. That’s not a rip on what he is doing but it all looks more like exercising to me than song contributing.

I think Carlton can make the pop circuit because he still retains a bit of the blues with his approach. I don’t think Holdsworth was ever interested in that approach so he went out to his island and stayed there. Nothing wrong with either approach.

I saw Holdsworth a couple of times as well. Once when I was in my twenties I saw him at a fairly small venue of a few hundred. I noticed two cute girls standing at a side and went over to chat them up. I had the preconceived notion that they must have gone to the show to meet guys because (like ever other guitarist show) the audience was mostly male. I was dead wrong. They knew more about Holdsworth’s work and career than I did. I was impressed with them. Neither one was impressed with me from what I recall.

What's the distinction of sounding like exercise or not? Giant Steps in itself is a giant exercise.

[lammie200]

What's the distinction of sounding like exercise or not? Giant Steps in itself is a giant exercise.

Yeah, but Coltrane has a dynamic quality to his playing that makes it all seem like a composition. At least that is the way I see it. I am acting more as a critic here and wouldn’t be presumptuous to equate my playing with Kotzen, but it appears like he is sloppily going through some motions. Totally valid for probably what he wants to do - follow the beat, play the gist of the lines, etc. You know, warmup. He isn’t like, trying for much feel. Now you could say that Coltrane’s Giant Steps doesn’t have any feel either. I am not there on that though.

[James W]

You know going back to the OP - it seems to me that the difference to me between the rock and jazz approach to me is rock players play on the chords, whereas jazz players learn to play into them.


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You seem to be pushing - on this thread at least - the idea that players are either jazz or rock.

In which case I will ask you - what does a (jazz-rock) fusion approach look like?

[Christian Miller]

You seem to be pushing - on this thread at least - the idea that players are either jazz or rock.

In which case I will ask you - what does a (jazz-rock) fusion approach look like?

I’m not saying that - I’m saying that I hear Allan more as a jazzer than a rock player.

If you need to ask me for specific examples of what is a jazz rock approach you can look at the several examples I’ve offered above. Or not, those posts are quite long.

In contemporary music I’d cite Wayne Krantz. Scott Henderson too in a different way.

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[Christian Miller]

Damn, that was clean! I can't think of another player whose intonation is as good as Yngwie's when doing bends and whammy bar stuff.

I mean as a player I am consistently impressed with Yngwie. His early stuff when it’s just him through a crunchy dry stack - I know how hard those things are to play - incredible. Not a controversial take I know haha. I just don’t care for his music.

But the man is a good musician, and hearing his pastiche Allan is very interesting. It’s interesting what he gets and what he doesn’t. His lines fit the chords scalically but he isn’t playing into and around the chords like Allan would.

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[Christian Miller]

Interesting way this thread is developing. My 2 cents:

Kotzen appears to be “warming up.” I think he even says so. I don’t know if I would label it more rock and less jazz, but he isn’t really working out the dynamics of what he is playing IMHO. That’s not a rip on what he is doing but it all looks more like exercising to me than song contributing.

I think Carlton can make the pop circuit because he still retains a bit of the blues with his approach. I don’t think Holdsworth was ever interested in that approach so he went out to his island and stayed there. Nothing wrong with either approach.

I saw Holdsworth a couple of times as well. Once when I was in my twenties I saw him at a fairly small venue of a few hundred. I noticed two cute girls standing at a side and went over to chat them up. I had the preconceived notion that they must have gone to the show to meet guys because (like ever other guitarist show) the audience was mostly male. I was dead wrong. They knew more about Holdsworth’s work and career than I did. I was impressed with them. Neither one was impressed with me from what I recall.

Carlton wouldn’t have lost the Level 42 gig haha. I mean I think Allan sounded great on that stuff but they wanted someone with a pop rhythm guitar approach.

Alan Murphy, who recommended Holdsworth for the gig before his tragic early death took a lot of Allan’s approach and put it into a pop session context. Although Murphy as brilliant as he was again sounds much more ‘80s pop-rock’.

Again you see this clash of sensibilities- the world of commercial audience focussed music and Allan following his muse. What people like Vai have done is cultivate a rock audience with more unusual and progressive (by mainstream standards) music. Allan seemed uninterested in crossing over in that way. The out and out rock projects he was involved with such as UK, never seemed to last.

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[James W]

I’m not saying that - I’m saying that I hear Allan more as a jazzer than a rock player.

Well, at least this assertion has more nuance than previous comments of yours - in that it seems to admit that there at least some rock aspects to Allan's music.

It's not an either/or. There are many ways of blending jazz and rock and other musics. Some exponents of fusion lean more on the rock side of things. People like Allan lean more on jazz, but the rock aspects are definitely there.

[Bob_Ross]

As aside on that note it's interesting listening to this

If I fast-forward to the guitar solo will I be impressed by Yngwie's note-for-note rendition of Allan's original solo, or perhaps even Yngwie's reinterpretation of Allan's original solo?

Because I listened to the first ~30 seconds of that recording, and I almost threw up in my mouth.
And mind you, I say that as someone who loves the original UK recording!

(...and fwiw I often point to Allan's solo on "In The Dead Of Night" as one of if not the Best. Guitar Solo. Ever.)

[charlieparker]

If I fast-forward to the guitar solo will I be impressed by Yngwie's note-for-note rendition of Allan's original solo, or perhaps even Yngwie's reinterpretation of Allan's original solo?

Because I listened to the first ~30 seconds of that recording, and I almost threw up in my mouth.
And mind you, I say that as someone who loves the original UK recording!

(...and fwiw I often point to Allan's solo on "In The Dead Of Night" as one of if not the Best. Guitar Solo. Ever.)

I didn't even realize it was an Allan song. Yes, the rhythm parts and the rest of the band sucked as usual with Yngwie, but the solo was incredible.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Kotzen has great chops, for sure. I suspect that if he got into it, he'd be a wonderful jazz player. But every thing I've heard him play showcases the chops and not the music, so his jazzy playing sounds soulless to me. He'd probably make a great session player, since he can apparently play whatever's in front of him with great precision. But it'd be nice to hear a little bit of his own musical taste and concepts in there (assuming blazing robotic note runs aren't the sole substance of his taste and concepts). Here's his approach to bebop lines (ho hum) -

He reminds me of Kenny G in a way. He's probably capable of more than we've heard. But I suspect he just doesn't care to venture beyond what he wants to do. More power to him.

[GuyBoden]

I’m not saying that - I’m saying that I hear Allan more as a jazzer than a rock player.

Allan Holdsworth was very original, so very difficult to categorise.

Not only his astounding technical guitar ability. His compositions are very unique, some are such beautifully constructed emotional pieces of textured musical landscapes.

Listen to this Allan Holdsworth live improv:

[DawgBone]

No one mentoned Kotzen is an extremely good vocalist within rock and blues-rock. Probably one of the few guitarists whose vocal chops can match his guitar chops. Most guys seem talent-tilted towards one or the other but he is very capable with a guitar or a mic.

[Christian Miller]

I didn't even realize it was an Allan song. Yes, the rhythm parts and the rest of the band sucked as usual with Yngwie, but the solo was incredible.

Check out the original. Probably Holdsworth's most famous solo. Yngwie quotes some of it in his solo.

SOOO soulful

Allan's phrasing is insane, the nuance. The way he cuts the note short at 0:39 gets me every time. I don't think anyone plays like that?

[Christian Miller]

If I fast-forward to the guitar solo will I be impressed by Yngwie's note-for-note rendition of Allan's original solo, or perhaps even Yngwie's reinterpretation of Allan's original solo?

Because I listened to the first ~30 seconds of that recording, and I almost threw up in my mouth.
And mind you, I say that as someone who loves the original UK recording!

(...and fwiw I often point to Allan's solo on "In The Dead Of Night" as one of if not the Best. Guitar Solo. Ever.)

Goodness me, why didn't you clock it was an Yngwie track and immediately skip to the solo? Look I can't safeguard your digestive situation if you are going to make poor decisions.

[Bob_Ross]

why didn't you clock it was an Yngwie track

Where do I even begin?

[ruger9]

Kotzen has great chops, for sure. I suspect that if he got into it, he'd be a wonderful jazz player. But every thing I've heard him play showcases the chops and not the music, so his jazzy playing sounds soulless to me. He'd probably make a great session player, since he can apparently play whatever's in front of him with great precision. But it'd be nice to hear a little bit of his own musical taste and concepts in there (assuming blazing robotic note runs aren't the sole substance of his taste and concepts). Here's his approach to bebop lines (ho hum) -

He reminds me of Kenny G in a way. He's probably capable of more than we've heard. But I suspect he just doesn't care to venture beyond what he wants to do. More power to him.

He's a singer/songwriter first and foremost. That's his career. He's also a multi-instrumentalist, on many of his albums he plays all the parts. He started out as a "shredder" but grew pretty quickly out of that. I'm sure he no interest in being a "jazz guitar player".

FWIW, I'm a rocker as well, and I like much of his catalog, but his solos generally are on the shreddy side; I listen more for his songwriting and arranging. He can "cool it down" when he wants to, but rarely does...

This is from an R&B project he was in... ffwd to 2:00 for the solo